Moon-Crane wrote:Bee Gees Fan wrote:Well, first of all, I want to point out that I don't think it's a good idea to portray atheists and psychics (or people believing in psychic ability) as though they are necessarily always holding opposing belief systems.[...]
Pardon me if i snip the rest of it for the reply, but at no point did i state, or imply, that atheists and psychics are in any way opposites.
Moon-Crane wrote:It's not even minorities who get the worst of it in this world, as my next post will unfortunately testify - and it's a far more serious problem to highlight than anything to do with a belief in supernatural powers.
Moon-Crane wrote:If someone says a psychic is a fraud, then the burden of proof does not lie on the person to prove that the 'psychic' person is, indeed, not psychic
Moon-Crane wrote:where there is no tangible, peer-reviewable and repeatable evidence to substantiate such a claim
Moon-Crane wrote:there is no accepted evidence for psychic abilities.
Bee Gees Fan wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:where there is no tangible, peer-reviewable and repeatable evidence to substantiate such a claim
There is peer-reviewable and repeatable evidence.
Bee Gees Fan wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:there is no accepted evidence for psychic abilities.
Well, again, there is evidence, and in my opinion, strong enough for mainstream science to at least start to consider the possibilities properly.
Bee Gees Fan wrote:...would it be accurate to say that you don't have anything against those types of psychics, and that you have nothing against them sharing their experiences with their friends and families?
Patrick wrote:It's no worse than people who scam billions by making the claim that they have a special connection with "god". Just think of the riches of the vatican and that they have done nothing but extort that money for centuries from the WORKING people of Europe and also of the rest of the world. The vatican is nothing but a giant blood sucking tick on the back of a dog (IE the working people).
Same goes for every other religion, BTW.
If there was any justice these bastards should be all thrown in jail, that parody of a country be dismantled, and all that stolen money be redistributed to the poorest of this planet.
CatNamedRudy wrote:
I wish Texas would secede.
JT wrote:Patrick wrote:It's no worse than people who scam billions by making the claim that they have a special connection with "god". Just think of the riches of the vatican and that they have done nothing but extort that money for centuries from the WORKING people of Europe and also of the rest of the world. The vatican is nothing but a giant blood sucking tick on the back of a dog (IE the working people).
Same goes for every other religion, BTW.
If there was any justice these bastards should be all thrown in jail, that parody of a country be dismantled, and all that stolen money be redistributed to the poorest of this planet.
Love the tolerance. Oh, btw Patrick, I just learned that one of my ancestral lines were French Huguenots. I just thought I'd bring that up since I was surprised by that finding.
JT wrote:...Love the tolerance. Oh, btw Patrick, I just learned that one of my ancestral lines were French Huguenots. I just thought I'd bring that up since I was surprised by that finding.
Patrick wrote:I think that in ten years, same sex marriage won't even be an issue and as someone responded recently on TV "I don't call it same sex marriage" "So what do you call it?" "Marriage." That says it all.
Why even make a distinction, other than for practical purposes?
Patrick wrote:Tolerance for criminals is not tolerance, it's accessory, at best. Are you tolerant of Adolph Hitler or Mussolini? I guess not. And yet the catholic church is responsible for much more death and misery than these two put together. What does it say about your sense of justice?
Moon-Crane wrote:Patrick wrote:I think that in ten years, same sex marriage won't even be an issue and as someone responded recently on TV "I don't call it same sex marriage" "So what do you call it?" "Marriage." That says it all.
Why even make a distinction, other than for practical purposes?
Good news in America today:
The US Supreme Court has struck down a law that defines marriage as between a man and a woman only, in a landmark ruling.
And the christian right was quick to respond
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=O3ZOKDmorj0
JT wrote:The gay thing ain't my issue. But one question that does come to mind is where does it end? The slippery slope argument may be applicable here. What about polygamy? What if I want to marry my bicycle? (OK, that last one is not serious, just thrown in for good measure).
JT wrote:Here is a question I want to throw out to you all: Is homosexuality normal?
Moon-Crane wrote:I know you're joking about the bicycle thing, but there are supposedly rational people arguing with the 'slippery slope' line that it leads to legalising bestiality, paedophilia and incest Are people really listening to themselves saying these things? How does one adult person who's in love with another adult person being able to marry suddenly open the door in that way? There's no logical progression. I'd equate it more to interracial marriage. People are equal, and should be treated politically and legally equal in terms of human rights. Nobody's legally allowed to shag animals, children or their siblings, and that's irrespective of being a man, woman, black, white, whatever, so it's nothing to do with your sexual orientation.
CatNamedRudy wrote:CONSENTING ADULTS! Find me an animal, a bicycle, a chair, a child etc...who can legally consent and this "slippery slope" argument would be much more valid.
And as disgusting as incest is to most of us it doesn't stop a lot of people from doing it. Nor does the fact that it's illegal stop them.
CatNamedRudy wrote:CONSENTING ADULTS! Find me an animal, a bicycle, a chair, a child etc...who can legally consent and this "slippery slope" argument would be much more valid.
And as disgusting as incest is to most of us it doesn't stop a lot of people from doing it. Nor does the fact that it's illegal stop them.
CatNamedRudy wrote:It's normal for people that are homosexual.
Moon-Crane wrote:I don't equate polygamy to homosexuality (not that i have any problem with that either between any consenting adults). The way i look at it is, if one person can marry another then it doesn't really matter if it's a man and a woman, two men or two women.
I know you're joking about the bicycle thing, but there are supposedly rational people arguing with the 'slippery slope' line that it leads to legalising bestiality, paedophilia and incest Are people really listening to themselves saying these things? How does one adult person who's in love with another adult person being able to marry suddenly open the door in that way? There's no logical progression. I'd equate it more to interracial marriage. People are equal, and should be treated politically and legally equal in terms of human rights. Nobody's legally allowed to shag animals, children or their siblings, and that's irrespective of being a man, woman, black, white, whatever, so it's nothing to do with your sexual orientation.
Moon-Crane wrote:Well, there's plenty of evidence for homosexual behaviour throughout the animal kingdom, and irrespective of what creationists choose to think, we're all evolved from the same common ancestors so i don't see anything particularly abnormal. I can understand people have their own baggage that makes them feel uncomfortable with it/hate it, but that's no reason to class it as abnormal.
I guess classing it as normal/abnormal is purely a cultural thing and in a state of fluidity?
JT wrote:Patrick wrote:Tolerance for criminals is not tolerance, it's accessory, at best. Are you tolerant of Adolph Hitler or Mussolini? I guess not. And yet the catholic church is responsible for much more death and misery than these two put together. What does it say about your sense of justice?
But the logical error you are making is in claiming that these churches, such as the Catholic church, are criminal. It has to be agreed that historically most organized religions have indeed behaved, at least on occasion, reprehensibly. But the modern version of these Christian churches are not on the whole criminal. Simply having another moral or political view than you does not make one a criminal. That is clearly intolerance. Now, if you want to point a finger at a religion for modern-day systemic reprehensible behavior, look no further than Islam.
JT wrote:CatNamedRudy wrote:CONSENTING ADULTS! Find me an animal, a bicycle, a chair, a child etc...who can legally consent and this "slippery slope" argument would be much more valid.
And as disgusting as incest is to most of us it doesn't stop a lot of people from doing it. Nor does the fact that it's illegal stop them.
But incestuous adults can be CONSENTING ADULTS! Therefor, doesn't that argument fall apart?
JT wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:I don't equate polygamy to homosexuality (not that i have any problem with that either between any consenting adults). The way i look at it is, if one person can marry another then it doesn't really matter if it's a man and a woman, two men or two women.
I know you're joking about the bicycle thing, but there are supposedly rational people arguing with the 'slippery slope' line that it leads to legalising bestiality, paedophilia and incest Are people really listening to themselves saying these things? How does one adult person who's in love with another adult person being able to marry suddenly open the door in that way? There's no logical progression. I'd equate it more to interracial marriage. People are equal, and should be treated politically and legally equal in terms of human rights. Nobody's legally allowed to shag animals, children or their siblings, and that's irrespective of being a man, woman, black, white, whatever, so it's nothing to do with your sexual orientation.
I'll try to help you out here. The critical difference for me is that I think homosexuality is innate - they were born that way. Polygamists are not, nor are incestuous people. Therefore they have a better argument for homosexual marriage being a civil rights issue. Better but not definitive.
JT wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:I guess classing it as normal/abnormal is purely a cultural thing and in a state of fluidity?
Purely a cultural thing? Not in my opinion. Statistical occurrence in nature does not equate to normal. 'Typical', maybe, if the numbers supported it. But not 'normal'. There is a statistical occurrence of schizophrenia, of retardation, or any number of other maladies - clearly not 'normal' - in populations. Not all are harmful, but they don't have to be to effect a determination of normal or not. To me its pretty simple. Heterosexual relations are required for sexual species procreation. Procreation is the primary reason for sexual behavior (I know its 'fun', etc, etc, but from an evolutionary perspective its procreative.) The deviation of homosexuality from this instinctual behavior - and a powerful, primary behavior at that - is aberrant within this context. That doesn't mean that homosexuals are bad people. Doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't be allowed to get married. Doesn't necessarily mean it is sinful. But not normal. For the most part, most of them seem to want society to accept them as 'normal' - just another life style choice. That won't happen. No matter what laws or legal interpretations are shoved down naysayer's throats. Religious people are stuck. Its written in their scriptures that homosexuality is a sin. So what can they do? Even if they wanted to, as some are, they can't because of scriptures that are thousands of years old.
Moon-Crane wrote:Great. So, as far as i stand from that point of view, a trait with which you are born shouldn't really mean you have fewer rights than others?
JT wrote:Funny how liberals will accept a birthright basis for certain civil rights but balk at others. Inconsistent, isn't it?
JT wrote:To me it boils down to the definition and nature of marriage. Again, I would be fully on board if homosexuals were denied rights as domestic partners, and to the extent that they are, I support them.
JT wrote:Why don't gays come up with their own word for their definition of marriage.
JT wrote:I'll help them out: lets call it GAYAGE. And then as being gayed couples they could enjoy the same state-recognized benefits afforded to those who are married.
JT wrote:(with the exception of adoption. Don't want to open up a whole other can of worms)
JT wrote:Then their nemesis would be content that their long recognized definition of marriage would not be changed. But homosexuals want society at large to accept their behavior, and a very overt way of doing that would be through the institution of marriage. The same one that serves heterosexual couples. Acceptance will not come for many people. Forced down their throat by liberal justices and politicians or not.
JT wrote:P.S. Did you know that most (evidenced by polling) African Americans oppose gay marriage? Furthermore, most seem to be offended that proponents equate 'gay rights' with their historic struggle for human rights.
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