The Footy Thread!

[Moon-Crane]

Heh, you sound even more pessimistic than I do

Nah, i think, in spite of our weaknesses, we should win against Ukraine. It shouldn't even take scraping a draw to edge through.

Punditry is all bollocks anyway. i had Poland and Russia to get through group A (i had Russia as a dark horse to get to the final) - and if any pundit wants to come forward and claim they predicted three dutch defeats i'll show you a complete liar

Perhaps Ashley Young will look better once Rooney's back in the team alongside Wellbeck. Carroll did great as a one-off against a very Premiership-like team but I think Rooney/Wellbeck/Young will be a better combo because they should have that immediate club understanding. Gerrard will continue to feed through quality balls no matter who's up front.

i'd actually have no problem with trying out the three together - even though Young's constant ability to give away possession in our own half scares the shit out of me.

It shows our lack of quality, though, when Gerrard is the man who's expected to run a midfield. He's a top player, but he's never shown that ability for England and he gives too much away with too many careless attempted 'hollywood' balls (i accept that's partly because we have little to no off-the-ball movement from other players to receive possession more easily).

Parker might be able to throw himself around to block a few things, and does a decent enough job, but he's not Makelele, Dechamps or Matthaus when it comes to quality midfield generals.

Amazingly it's our defence I'm most worried about now. Not exactly the Fort Knox we were lead to believe by some pundits going into the competition.

We're missing Cahill. he was the one major loss out of the pre-tournament injury glut. Terry is as past it as Ferdinand, and Lescott doesn't look to have the quality at this level. He always looks like bambi on ice, to me, whenever the ball get played around his feet. We need better than players who can try and compete for headers and scrappy clearances.

I think we'll probably scrape a draw tomorrow night and progress but I have visions of a 90 minute bore draw with Shevchenko popping up in the 91st to put Ukraine through - John Terry beaten for skill and pace falling flat on his arse in the process...

As i say, i think we should beat Ukraine, but i stand by thinking they can easily beat us if we continue to give cheap ball away in midfield and sit too deep when they;re coming forwards.

[Moon-Crane]

Nicklas Bendtner fines £80k and banned for a match for 'inappropriate advertising'.
Croatian FA fined £65k for fans' racist chanting.

Golf clap for UEFA.

[woggle]

Nicklas Bendtner fines £80k and banned for a match for 'inappropriate advertising'.
Croatian FA fined £65k for fans' racist chanting.

Golf clap for UEFA.

^ thats madness

If that 1st half chance had fallen to Caroll instead of Rooney i reckon we'd be in front of the Ukraine , he looks as rusty as hell.

[Hans the German Butler]

Ashley Young needs to be dropped, that's two games in which he's shown all the footballing quality of a steaming turd. Milner was pretty crap as well. The game was crying out for pace down the flanks and a big lad in the middle. We had a lot of set pieces that just sailed over everyone. But saying all that, job done. We'll have to improve against Italy though!

[Moon-Crane]

Good win, that. I worried at our lack of possession in the first twenty minutes. A better team is certainly going to beat us if we give up that amount of cheap possession. That said, for all our limitations, we worked together well and deserved both the win and topping the group.

Funny you mention Young, Hans. I thought that was his best performance out of the three games. He was the same old pointless inclusion during the first twenty minutes, but once he'd chucked in that decent cross for the Rooney missed sitter, he seemed to grow in confidence. Still not great, but adequate.

Gerrard was excellent in midfield and pretty disciplined. Don't recall any stupid passes from him. Parker was dogged. I'd have probably brought on Defoe ahead of the Ox to play out the remaining few minutes, and we didn't make any use of Walcott when he came on, but all in all i wouldn't have asked for much more from the team.

Crazy goal line decision again - and this time to England's benefit - with an official on the touchline looking directly at it from two or three yards away. What do those guys do? The initial ball was clearly a mile offside, so a bit of justice done, but still an appalling decision to add to FIFA and UEFA's books on goal line technology.

Strange result to see France so comfortably beaten by Sweden, too.

Not quite sure why various presenters appear to think that, by avoiding Spain, we have a bye in the QF? Italy will be tough, and we need to hold the ball better now.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Good win, that. I worried at our lack of possession in the first twenty minutes. A better team is certainly going to beat us if we give up that amount of cheap possession. That said, for all our limitations, we worked together well and deserved both the win and topping the group.

Funny you mention Young, Hans. I thought that was his best performance out of the three games. He was the same old pointless inclusion during the first twenty minutes, but once he'd chucked in that decent cross for the Rooney missed sitter, he seemed to grow in confidence. Still not great, but adequate.

Gerrard was excellent in midfield and pretty disciplined. Don't recall any stupid passes from him. Parker was dogged. I'd have probably brought on Defoe ahead of the Ox to play out the remaining few minutes, and we didn't make any use of Walcott when he came on, but all in all i wouldn't have asked for much more from the team.

Crazy goal line decision again - and this time to England's benefit - with an official on the touchline looking directly at it from two or three yards away. What do those guys do? The initial ball was clearly a mile offside, so a bit of justice done, but still an appalling decision to add to FIFA and UEFA's books on goal line technology.

Strange result to see France so comfortably beaten by Sweden, too.

Not quite sure why various presenters appear to think that, by avoiding Spain, we have a bye in the QF? Italy will be tough, and we need to hold the ball better now.

I actually think it's quite telling that we haven't played well yet in any of the games yet we topped the group. Perhaps this style of football has always been the way an England team should have set up even when we had the so-called golden generation playing. When I watch us play now I can see how good we are without the ball - a highly disciplined two banks of four players which is very difficult to break down. It felt like we played bollocks against France but actually we restricted them to a lot of 30 yeard shots, most of which were off target (just as they were last night against the Ukraine). I think there's an argument for keeping Milner in there and actually against the top sides we're now going to be facing playing Baines on the left flank rather than Young might be the better option. We're going to need the entire midfield to have defensive sensibilities if we're going to play this way and get through. People who are calling for people like Walcott to start are missing the point - we need a tight, disciplined unit to start the game and if things start going tits up then yes, obviously, change things then.

With that in mind it may be an option to start Carroll rather than Welbeck just to have an out ball and to help defend (and attack) from set pieces which are always going to be our main threat. I think at this juncture it's as well to have a minnow nation mentality but with the knowledge we have one or two exceptional players who can create something out of nothing for a 1-0 win.

Heh, just think. Roy Hodgson and half the England team are only three scrappy 1-0 wins away from knighthoods

[Hans the German Butler]

I notice Sepp Blatter today came out in favour of goal-line technology - the day after Ukraine had a goal ruled out against England. He's been saying for the last two years it was unworkable and actually prevented the FA from running a pilot in the 2010/11 season under threat of expulsion; but now England have been the beneficiaries of a goal-line error (which should have been chalked off for off-side anyway) he's all in favour of it. Could that man be a bigger twunt?!?

[Moon-Crane]

I notice Sepp Blatter today came out in favour of goal-line technology - the day after Ukraine had a goal ruled out against England. He's been saying for the last two years it was unworkable and actually prevented the FA from running a pilot in the 2010/11 season under threat of expulsion; but now England have been the beneficiaries of a goal-line error (which should have been chalked off for off-side anyway) he's all in favour of it. Could that man be a bigger twunt?!?

He's always been strangely reluctant but I always thought Platini was the one most against it. I dread the thought of him taking over when Blatter finally steps down/dies.

[Hans the German Butler]

He's always been strangely reluctant but I always thought Platini was the one most against it. I dread the thought of him taking over when Blatter finally steps down/dies.

Can't say I dread the thought of Blatter dying but I hope a real contender comes through to prevent Platini being crowned. It makes me feel quite sad saying that because I loved him as a player. What is it about the corrupt and venal system of football administration that turns our erstwhile heroes into bastards?

[Moon-Crane]

He's always been strangely reluctant but I always thought Platini was the one most against it. I dread the thought of him taking over when Blatter finally steps down/dies.

Can't say I dread the thought of Blatter dying but I hope a real contender comes through to prevent Platini being crowned. It makes me feel quite sad saying that because I loved him as a player. What is it about the corrupt and venal system of football administration that turns our erstwhile heroes into bastards?

He was certainly a quality player. No idea what happens when they enter those halls of football administration.

It's been quite amusing hearing people talk about how the goal line technology would have eradicated game-affecting mistakes. It would have only moved the goalposts, so to speak, in last night's game. If there'd been the tech in play they'd have shown the ball over the line, but i'm certain it wouldn't have shown the initial offside starting point of the move. So we'd have been shafted again rather than Ukraine. I'd still rather have the goal line tech, but it's not the magic wand cure to all problems.

[Moon-Crane]

Woeful performance from Czech Republic tonight. I'd like to think England can at least play better than that against Italy.

On the non-Euro front, with the news that Steve Kean will be kept on as Blackburn manager for now, I wonder how much influence a football agent has at a club.
Where’s the FA as Rovers are being robbed and relegated?

[Mr Blue Sky]

Woeful performance from Czech Republic tonight. I'd like to think England can at least play better than that against Italy.

They were pretty good that first 20 minutes, but faded dramatically. I just knew that swarthy scumster would pop up with the winner...

On the non-Euro front, with the news that Steve Kean will be kept on as Blackburn manager for now, I wonder how much influence a football agent has at a club.
Where’s the FA as Rovers are being robbed and relegated?

The FA are too busy swimming in an Olympic sized pool full of money to care about such small matters. The whole issue of foreign football ownership needs looking into at a national level. It would be quite easy to bring in legislation stating football clubs are NOT a business like any other which can be bought and sold like any multi-national corporation. The government needs to act as the FA have shown themselves to be completely impotent in this area.

[Moon-Crane]

Well, that was embarrassing

Staggering to think those England players are each paid in excess of £100,000 per week to play football. You'd think they'd have tried playing it tonight? You can't even blame Hodgson for that, in my eyes. You can't legislate for having a bunch of players who can't pass a fucking ball to each other.

Still, the tournament as a whole was pleasing enough to see a relatively organised team. And, for all their limitations, they actually played like a bunch of players who wanted to be together as a team and play for each other.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Well, that was embarrassing

Staggering to think those England players are each paid in excess of £100,000 per week to play football. You'd think they'd have tried playing it tonight? You can't even blame Hodgson for that, in my eyes. You can't legislate for having a bunch of players who can't pass a fucking ball to each other.

There was an excellent piece written by Paul Hayward in yesterday's Telegraph about the English 'desease' of good technique being ditched in favour of more physical attributes. I agree with every word he says and last night's game proved the point really.

That was nothing like as bad as our Bloemfontein humiliation - I was actually quite proud of our lads who didn't have a drop left to give by the end. It could easily have gone our way too.

Still, the tournament as a whole was pleasing enough to see a relatively organised team. And, for all their limitations, they actually played like a bunch of players who wanted to be together as a team and play for each other.

Yeah I've enjoyed it. As of last night there were only 5 teams left who could have been European Champions and we were one of them. Definitely over-achieved this tournament in my eyes has Hodgson and frankly even in years gone by with much more talented players in the side they didn't get any further than the quarters. People who think 'Arry could have done any better are deluding themselves.

The bigger picture of course is exactly the same as it was two years ago when we were knocked out of the World Cup. We have a trade off in this country for a top class domestic league rather than a national side that has a chance of winning something. Too many games, too many competitions and no winter break in a highly physical league all combine to hamstring our players - half of them looked fucked after 70 minutes last night. Until we address that we can forget about winning anything. The problem is the solution would mean a cut in revenues for all concerned and we all know that hasn't a snowflake's chance in hell of happening.

[Moon-Crane]

Well, that was embarrassing

Staggering to think those England players are each paid in excess of £100,000 per week to play football. You'd think they'd have tried playing it tonight? You can't even blame Hodgson for that, in my eyes. You can't legislate for having a bunch of players who can't pass a fucking ball to each other.

There was an excellent piece written by Paul Hayward in yesterday's Telegraph about the English 'desease' of good technique being ditched in favour of more physical attributes. I agree with every word he says and last night's game proved the point really.

That was nothing like as bad as our Bloemfontein humiliation - I was actually quite proud of our lads who didn't have a drop left to give by the end. It could easily have gone our way too.

Oh, it's been night and day compared to SA. THis actually looked like a team. A team without flair or ability to hold the ball, but an organised outfit at least. England used to be able to rely on some physical ability to get them through matches. That's long gone now. Continental players look far fitter than British players nowadays.

Still, the tournament as a whole was pleasing enough to see a relatively organised team. And, for all their limitations, they actually played like a bunch of players who wanted to be together as a team and play for each other.

Yeah I've enjoyed it. As of last night there were only 5 teams left who could have been European Champions and we were one of them. Definitely over-achieved this tournament in my eyes has Hodgson and frankly even in years gone by with much more talented players in the side they didn't get any further than the quarters. People who think 'Arry could have done any better are deluding themselves.

The bigger picture of course is exactly the same as it was two years ago when we were knocked out of the World Cup. We have a trade off in this country for a top class domestic league rather than a national side that has a chance of winning something. Too many games, too many competitions and no winter break in a highly physical league all combine to hamstring our players - half of them looked fucked after 70 minutes last night. Until we address that we can forget about winning anything. The problem is the solution would mean a cut in revenues for all concerned and we all know that hasn't a snowflake's chance in hell of happening.

The league schedule needs cutting back (as you say - never going to happen), but i don't believe that's the cause of our inability to hold the ball or the sole consequence of our players being out on their feet against Italy. I'd be interested to see the stats for players in each quarter-final team to compare the minutes/matches played for their clubs last season. If Italy can play in such an industrious way that allows Pirlo to stroll around deep in the middle and do nothing but ping balls to players in space, then it's more than a long season that stops England doing the same with Gerrard.

If i could throw one criticism at Hodgson during that match, it was the rigid substitions he continued at the hour mark. I guess he specifically called for the tactics to turn to long ball at Carroll to try and win a foul/set piece situation and nick it - otherwise i'm not sure how the double change on the hour was going to help us start to get hold of the ball. Young has been a woeful waste in this tournament yet it was Milner who always made way. I'd have left Milner and Welbeck on for a little longer and maybe tried Baines on the left in place of Young for a while (and to be honest, i'd trust him more than Young to take a penalty!). After that double switch, he was left with little other choice than to stick on Henderson to replace Parker's dead legs - given the siege we'd resigned oursleves to defending.

In spite of that exit, I still think we've shown good signs under Hodgson. That first half hour was enough to prove there's ability to compete with an Italy. I hope we don't throw away any silly points in the early stages of qualification for Brazil, though, otherwise it could be trouble.

[Hans the German Butler]

It's been a strange tournament in the sense that expectations were low going in and grew despite some fairly average performances in the group games. I think Hodgson did ok in that he obeyed the first mantra of setting up a football team - make them difficult to beat. I actually got the feeling that whoever we'd played last night we would have been able to get a clean sheet. But the problem then comes in the knockout stage of the tournament that even if you don't concede - you have to score goals - apart from the first 20 minutes we didn't really threaten and we conceded possession to an alarming degree. So once you've decided you're going to concede possession and limit your own goalscoring opportunities you need players who will still have the mental strength and the 'legs' left to take a penalty after 120+ minutes of chasing the football. So do you stack your team with too many 30+ players, who were out on their feet at 70 minutes or just bite the bulllet and blood a younger generation?

The big area where Hodgson cocked up in last night's game was allowing England to be overrun in the middle - not a good idea when your two holding players are coming toward the end of their careers. The "Roy likes 4-4-2" argument doesn't wash. Rooney didn't have the discipline to sit back on Pirlo and he offered nothing anyway so bring on the extra midfielder and sit someone on Pirlo's shoulder so at least we don't have to run around like headless chickens trying to get a sniff of the ball. Just a simple move like putting Henderson in with Parker to do the running and Gerrard on Pirlo with license to raid forward in support of the forward when we're in attack could have made a huge difference.

My only real rant is that Ashley Young should not still have been on the pitch to take a penalty - he was woeful and has been for the whole tournament. I hope he takes that form into the coming season for Man Ure!

[woggle]

I didn't have high expectations for England in the EURO's but i thought we could take the Italians yesterday *sigh*


Arsenal have signed Olivier Giroud from Montpellier = quite happy about that .

[Moon-Crane]

My only real rant is that Ashley Young should not still have been on the pitch to take a penalty - he was woeful and has been for the whole tournament. I hope he takes that form into the coming season for Man Ure!

I dont think anyone can disagree about that.

Rooney was awful, too. Even Welbeck was ok at best. For all the criticism of Carroll's supposed lack of ability to control a ball, I'd say Welbeck's touch and hold up play was useless - far worse than Caroll's. Carroll was a pleasant surprise in the chances he was given.

All the critics of the Liverpool players being picked for the squad. No comparison between the decent, hard working, contributions of Gerrard and Johnson compared to the casual, lightweight, crap of Young and Rooney - and i'd say Carroll was more useful than Welbeck. Does anyone think Downing really would have done a worse job than Young on the left?

[Hans the German Butler]

I dont think anyone can disagree about that.

Rooney was awful, too. Even Welbeck was ok at best. For all the criticism of Carroll's supposed lack of ability to control a ball, I'd say Welbeck's touch and hold up play was useless - far worse than Caroll's. Carroll was a pleasant surprise in the chances he was given.

All the critics of the Liverpool players being picked for the squad. No comparison between the decent, hard working, contributions of Gerrard and Johnson compared to the casual, lightweight, crap of Young and Rooney - and i'd say Carroll was more useful than Welbeck. Does anyone think Downing really would have done a worse job than Young on the left?

To some extent I think that the Liverpool players were playing without the same pressure as was on the others. Because of our season, which I still maintain was more unlucky that just lacking in quality, no one expected much of the Liverpool players. Consequently they didn't really have much to lose.

I thought Gerrard was probably the pick of England's players and this tournament has demonstrated once and for all that if you play Gerrard in the centre and you don't include Lampard, who will run the same lines, thereby creating a redundancy, you get the best out of the better player. I'd rate him at 8/10 for the tourney.

Glen Johnson had a bit of mixed time. He had a mare against Sweden and played Mellberg on for at least one of their goals his pure defending, if not his positional sense, have been impressive though - 6.5/10.

Carroll scored a cracker against Sweden and did pretty much everything expected of him. He assisted effectively in defence and held the ball up well. It's just a shame he had little support to lay off the ball after he'd held it up - 7/10.

Henderson only had a couple of cameo appearances but he looked sharp, full of energy and well disciplined for the holding role Parker vacated - 6/10

The rest:

Hart - Good confidence that breeds confidence in defence - although one or two parries that should have been catches created unnecessary pressure - 6.5/10
Cole - Solid, dependable and apart from against Italy provided a decent overlap on our left - 7/10
Terry - Good reading of the game for a cunt - solid blocker and tackler but so painfully slow - 6.5/10
Lescott - Needs good defenders round him to look ok. Good goal against France - 5.5/10
Parker - Worked like a trojan, good blocker and stopper but provided very little else - 6.5/10
Milner - Worked hard, ran a lot, produced nothing, gave the ball away too much - 3.5/10
Young - Lacked confidence, could not hold the ball - lost it too many times in dangerous areas, provided one cross of note - 3/10
Rooney - Out of condition, terrible first touch, ponderous running and awful tactical/positional awareness, good penalty in shoot-out - 3.5/10
Welbeck - Was that goal meant? I think so, but he lacks experience and positional awareness never a game changer - 5.5/10

Walcott - Changed the game against Sweden - why did no one pass to him and encourage him to run at the opposition when he came on as sub? - 6/10
Oxlade Chamberlain - Creditable performance vs. France - inexplicably left out for Young?!? - 6/10

[Hans the German Butler]

Interesting to see what is happening to Glasgow Rangers at the moment. 5 of the 12 clubs have publicly stated they will not admit the New-co to the SPL so they seem down and out. It's seems a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas to me. Surely these clubs can't have failed to grasp that without Rangers their revenue streams will plummet. If I was Charles Green, I think I would be trying to take the New-co into the English leagues.

[Moon-Crane]

Interesting to see what is happening to Glasgow Rangers at the moment. 5 of the 12 clubs have publicly stated they will not admit the New-co to the SPL so they seem down and out. It's seems a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas to me. Surely these clubs can't have failed to grasp that without Rangers their revenue streams will plummet. If I was Charles Green, I think I would be trying to take the New-co into the English leagues.

I've got mixed feelings about that. I think it's good for the sport that the teams are (hopefully) attempting to maintain integrity by not simply allowing them to return to the top flight as if nothing ever happended. As much as they've been a cash cow for the Scottish game, it's difficult to stomach the reality of one rule for one...

Unlikely to be happening, anyway, but i'm not particularly enthralled about any thoughts of them trying to join the English league set up.

Green's also got a right bloody cheek thinking all the players are legally still contracted to the new Rangers club. I'm sorry, but you liquidate the club and set it up as a brand new company, you expect to lose the assets along with the debts. Can't see how there should be any argument about players being tied to contracts from the previous, now-extinct, company.

[Moon-Crane]

Wow, Germany were terrible tonight. Completely imploded. After all the talk criticising our inability to stop Pirlo, they didn't heed their own advice. What quality he is.

Also a little surprised to hear so many people jumping on the 'boring spain' bandwagon. I mentioned a couple of days ago, on JT's thread, that i found them a little boring to watch, but some people are going crazy over it. Hell, i might find them a little too tedious and too indirect at times, but i'd take England players being able to play with such a deft touch.

Seeing the flaws in Germany tonight was quite heartening for all the downer thoughts relating to England in the last few days.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Wow, Germany were terrible tonight. Completely imploded. After all the talk criticising our inability to stop Pirlo, they didn't heed their own advice. What quality he is.

Also a little surprised to hear so many people jumping on the 'boring spain' bandwagon. I mentioned a couple of days ago, on JT's thread, that i found them a little boring to watch, but some people are going crazy over it. Hell, i might find them a little too tedious and too indirect at times, but i'd take England players being able to play with such a deft touch.

Seeing the flaws in Germany tonight was quite heartening for all the downer thoughts relating to England in the last few days.

Amazed Germany got beat - Spain must be delighted. The Italians will be no pushovers but I bet they'd much rather face them than the Germans tomorrow night whilst going for their 3rd major tourny win on the bounce.

I'm a bit jaded talking about England now. There are fundamental flaws in our game at grass roots level that I fear will never be sorted out. The best we can hope for in the short term is if the fixture list is shortened but again the FA are hardly likely to back something which brings in less revenue. Nevermind, let's just hope a couple of young English geniuses are on the horizon about to break through into someone's first team...

[Hans the German Butler]

Spain - I'm fairly speechless at how good that performance was. Where was that level of incisiveness to go along with all the pretty passing during the rest of the tournament?

Hard luck on Italy - but could anyone have lived with Spain on that form?

[Mr Blue Sky]

Spain - I'm fairly speechless at how good that performance was. Where was that level of incisiveness to go along with all the pretty passing during the rest of the tournament?

Hard luck on Italy - but could anyone have lived with Spain on that form?

I know, I think this is why they've suffered a bit of a backlash. We all know those players are capable of champagne football so where has it been all tournament? Still, they have a winning first mentality and you can't criticise them for that - I certainly wouldn't mind England boring their way to tournament win after tournament win.

The scary thing is 3/4 of that team can still be playing in 8 years' time

Funny that Torres won the golden boot - he's hardly played!