Moon-Crane wrote:Barring some major shift of thought, I think it's setting up for McCain to throw away.
Even the so-called nutter liberal left-wing conspiracy theorist brigades are digging up all sorts of shit about Obama without even having to read anything spouted by Republican fans.
(as an aside, good to see DEK have a swipe at the Democrat Party on Boston Legal).
What does anyone make of the growing amount of people not relying on the dollar as the main value of oil and such things any more. I suppose some will simply put it down to anti-American mindsets, but any international business is more pragmatic than that, i'm certain.
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:Barring some major shift of thought, I think it's setting up for McCain to throw away.
Even the so-called nutter liberal left-wing conspiracy theorist brigades are digging up all sorts of shit about Obama without even having to read anything spouted by Republican fans.
(as an aside, good to see DEK have a swipe at the Democrat Party on Boston Legal).
What does anyone make of the growing amount of people not relying on the dollar as the main value of oil and such things any more. I suppose some will simply put it down to anti-American mindsets, but any international business is more pragmatic than that, i'm certain.
Yeah, last night's ep was even more politicised that usual, I meant to write something on the TV thread about that...
Do you really think the Presidency is McCain's to lose? I'm not sure if I've understood your first line properly, feel free to correct me.
I'm still pretty sure a Democrat will be in the White House by the end of the year. Once the debate moves on to Democrat vs Republican policy I'm sure the polls will swing even further away from McCain. It's not like things are all going hunky dory in the world right now and America just needs a 'safe pair of hands to keep the ship on course'. A major rethink is needed with regards to policies on Iraq, the economy and climate change.
CatNamedRudy wrote:Mr Blue Sky wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:Barring some major shift of thought, I think it's setting up for McCain to throw away.
Even the so-called nutter liberal left-wing conspiracy theorist brigades are digging up all sorts of shit about Obama without even having to read anything spouted by Republican fans.
(as an aside, good to see DEK have a swipe at the Democrat Party on Boston Legal).
What does anyone make of the growing amount of people not relying on the dollar as the main value of oil and such things any more. I suppose some will simply put it down to anti-American mindsets, but any international business is more pragmatic than that, i'm certain.
Yeah, last night's ep was even more politicised that usual, I meant to write something on the TV thread about that...
Do you really think the Presidency is McCain's to lose? I'm not sure if I've understood your first line properly, feel free to correct me.
I'm still pretty sure a Democrat will be in the White House by the end of the year. Once the debate moves on to Democrat vs Republican policy I'm sure the polls will swing even further away from McCain. It's not like things are all going hunky dory in the world right now and America just needs a 'safe pair of hands to keep the ship on course'. A major rethink is needed with regards to policies on Iraq, the economy and climate change.
I actually think it's Obama's campaign to lose. Although the shit on him will absolutely start flying now and I'm very concerned as to how he will handle it.
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:Barring some major shift of thought, I think it's setting up for McCain to throw away.
Even the so-called nutter liberal left-wing conspiracy theorist brigades are digging up all sorts of shit about Obama without even having to read anything spouted by Republican fans.
(as an aside, good to see DEK have a swipe at the Democrat Party on Boston Legal).
What does anyone make of the growing amount of people not relying on the dollar as the main value of oil and such things any more. I suppose some will simply put it down to anti-American mindsets, but any international business is more pragmatic than that, i'm certain.
Yeah, last night's ep was even more politicised that usual, I meant to write something on the TV thread about that...
Do you really think the Presidency is McCain's to lose? I'm not sure if I've understood your first line properly, feel free to correct me.
I'm still pretty sure a Democrat will be in the White House by the end of the year. Once the debate moves on to Democrat vs Republican policy I'm sure the polls will swing even further away from McCain. It's not like things are all going hunky dory in the world right now and America just needs a 'safe pair of hands to keep the ship on course'. A major rethink is needed with regards to policies on Iraq, the economy and climate change.
Moon-Crane wrote:Mr Blue Sky wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:Barring some major shift of thought, I think it's setting up for McCain to throw away.
Even the so-called nutter liberal left-wing conspiracy theorist brigades are digging up all sorts of shit about Obama without even having to read anything spouted by Republican fans.
(as an aside, good to see DEK have a swipe at the Democrat Party on Boston Legal).
What does anyone make of the growing amount of people not relying on the dollar as the main value of oil and such things any more. I suppose some will simply put it down to anti-American mindsets, but any international business is more pragmatic than that, i'm certain.
Yeah, last night's ep was even more politicised that usual, I meant to write something on the TV thread about that...
Do you really think the Presidency is McCain's to lose? I'm not sure if I've understood your first line properly, feel free to correct me.
I'm still pretty sure a Democrat will be in the White House by the end of the year. Once the debate moves on to Democrat vs Republican policy I'm sure the polls will swing even further away from McCain. It's not like things are all going hunky dory in the world right now and America just needs a 'safe pair of hands to keep the ship on course'. A major rethink is needed with regards to policies on Iraq, the economy and climate change.
You didn't misread it mate I just feel that when the dirt starts flying and terror and national security starts to be pounded back into the forefront of the nation's minds that the swing voters will more likely stick with the 'safe' white male than the untested, young, black upstart in 'these dangerous times'.
The one thing that Hillary did, which Obama is more coy about admitting, was sign everything that backed keeping the troops overseas, agreeing further military funding, and waving through even tighter laws on restricting civil liberty - so she'd maybe have had more chance when the card was played to prey on people's worries. McCain v Clinton was more closely giving people more or less the same continuance of policies, whichever way the vote went, than McCain v Obama seems to imho.
Also, which politician said "It's the economy, stupid!" when asked what the important issues were. I know that's not so much down to Bush/The Republicans as macro-economic cycles but the public likes to blame/praise whoever's in charge when it comes to the economy, so Obama will definitely have a strong card to play there.
CatNamedRudy wrote:"It's the economy stupid" was the battle cry at Bill Clinton's campaign headquarters in 1992. James Carville is given credit for it as it was he who placed the sign at Clinton's Little Rock office.
Focus on the economy worked wonders for Clinton and I do think it's something that Obama should try and focus on.
The war and the economy are going to be huge issues. And as to the war, it's going to be like 2004 all over again. It's going to be McCain talking about terrorism and how we have to stay in Iraq to keep America safe and it's going to be Obama saying we need to get out. Then it will be Republicans calling Obama "Un American" because we is against the war and there will be a big issue about how he was never in the military and yada, yada, yada. Democrats will be going on a tirade about McCain being a war monger and blah, blah, blah.
Mr Blue Sky wrote:CatNamedRudy wrote:"It's the economy stupid" was the battle cry at Bill Clinton's campaign headquarters in 1992. James Carville is given credit for it as it was he who placed the sign at Clinton's Little Rock office.
Focus on the economy worked wonders for Clinton and I do think it's something that Obama should try and focus on.
Ah right, cheers, I didn't realise the quote was that recent, actually. For some reason I thought it was Abe Lincoln!The war and the economy are going to be huge issues. And as to the war, it's going to be like 2004 all over again. It's going to be McCain talking about terrorism and how we have to stay in Iraq to keep America safe and it's going to be Obama saying we need to get out. Then it will be Republicans calling Obama "Un American" because we is against the war and there will be a big issue about how he was never in the military and yada, yada, yada. Democrats will be going on a tirade about McCain being a war monger and blah, blah, blah.
Yes, but while playing on peoples' fears in 2004 worked well, it will be a much tougher trick to pull off second time around, as 9/11 isn't quite as fresh in the electorate's mind. I definitely think that played a huge part in Bush's win over Kerry in '04. Also, McCain has fairly liberal tendancies himself so I don't think he'll do a great job of arguing against Obama's liberal ideals with much conviction. We'll have to see, but I reckon the Republicans will get spanked this fall. :D
CatNamedRudy wrote:
I actually think it's Obama's campaign to lose. Although the shit on him will absolutely start flying now and I'm very concerned as to how he will handle it.
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Yes, but while playing on peoples' fears in 2004 worked well, it will be a much tougher trick to pull off second time around, as 9/11 isn't quite as fresh in the electorate's mind.
Mr Blue Sky wrote: Also, McCain has fairly liberal tendancies himself so I don't think he'll do a great job of arguing against Obama's liberal ideals with much conviction
CatNamedRudy wrote:
They'll try and push the un-American thing but it's not going to have the same effect.
JT wrote:CatNamedRudy wrote:
They'll try and push the un-American thing but it's not going to have the same effect.
As if its merely just some sort of campaign talking point. 'The un-American thing'. The acid test for the grip that dysfunctional liberal ideology has on us is that a veritable enemy of our country could be elected it's next President.
(care to jump in on the 'veritable enemy' part? I'll stand by it. Ask his lifelong 'mentor'. Ask William Ayers, a friend. Ask his wife. Ask the core constituency of the extreme Left. They'll tell ya. They are as much an enemy of the US as the French elite are. Ask Mitterand. Ole Francois was quoted as saying 'The French masses don't know it, but we are at war with the US'.)
Mr Blue Sky wrote:It's not like things are all going hunky dory in the world right now and America just needs a 'safe pair of hands to keep the ship on course'. A major rethink is needed with regards to policies on Iraq, the economy and climate change.
Mr Blue Sky wrote:
He'll do fine if that speech distancing himself from Pastor Wright is anything to go by.
Moon-Crane wrote:Jesus, let it go with the French already - Mitterand's been dead for 12 years - he hardly reflects the view of all French people today, or even back then. It's as stupid as taking the old line from Condoleeza Rice, when she said 'Forgive Russia, forget Germany, punish France' - moronic, and doesn't hold true at all. If someone said something as flippant as the US are an enemy of a peaceful world - that sounds equally as dumb, no?
Moon-Crane wrote:
Do you seriously feel under threat from any terrorist activity? I certainly don't. That's not to say nothing can ever happen, but it's simply an untruth to scare people into thinking some deadly attack is imminent. You've got to weigh up the pros and cons, realistically, for all of life's potential dangers, otherwise you'd never leave a shelter in some remote Alaskan mountains.
Moon-Crane wrote:You mentioned in a previous post that it's "absolutely stunning, and dangerous, how liberals downplay the real threat" - how about looking at it as putting the 'threat' into perspective with other issues that people have to cope with. What sort of life is it to be suspicious of anyone and everyone around you? I'd rather be dead than living a 'life' where everything i say and do (allowed to do) or have ever done is monitored and controlled in the name of 'national security'.
Moon-Crane wrote:Why should people be seen as unpatriotic for daring to question their government steamroller?
Moon-Crane wrote:I don't believe, in reality, that the mainstream Democrats hold any different position from the Republicans on these issues anyway, whatever tub gets thumped as the current opposition.
Moon-Crane wrote:Take it to the ridiculous extreme. Obama gets in, continues to tighten personal freedom laws and decides that your posts are personal attacks and thus tantamount to terrorism and inciting people with anti-government feeling. Along with anti-Democrat sites you visit, that labels you as 'a threat to American freedom' so they arrest you and stick you in 'detention' until they can be bothered to get round to investigating. Give it four or five years, it doesn't matter. What a load of bollocks, eh? It would simply never happen? It's easy to laugh off at the moment of course. All those people released from Guantanamo Bay without any charges are obviously all really guilty of everything - just that the liberal laws are too relaxed to be able to convict them easily, is the real reason of course, isn't it?
Moon-Crane wrote:We're simply not all going to be 'turned into Muslims'
Moon-Crane wrote:or blown up by terrorists by not having a non-Republican in the White House. Instilling fear is a despicable tactic to employ, and Bush/Cheney et al, have been just as guilty of employing it as those idiots in Al Qaeeda.
JT wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:
Do you seriously feel under threat from any terrorist activity? I certainly don't. That's not to say nothing can ever happen, but it's simply an untruth to scare people into thinking some deadly attack is imminent. You've got to weigh up the pros and cons, realistically, for all of life's potential dangers, otherwise you'd never leave a shelter in some remote Alaskan mountains.
You have got to be absolutely kidding us! It's historical record, my friend. Take away counter-terrorism efforts and attacks would be imminent. An 'untruth' to 'scare' people into thinking some deadly attack is imminent? I don't know what reality you live under, MC. I'm glad it's not mine.Moon-Crane wrote:You mentioned in a previous post that it's "absolutely stunning, and dangerous, how liberals downplay the real threat" - how about looking at it as putting the 'threat' into perspective with other issues that people have to cope with. What sort of life is it to be suspicious of anyone and everyone around you? I'd rather be dead than living a 'life' where everything i say and do (allowed to do) or have ever done is monitored and controlled in the name of 'national security'.
we are not talking about irrational suspicion of everyone. I'm not suspicious of many nuns or Mormons. We're talking about the opposite - irrational lack of suspicion of anyone but our own government.
Moon-Crane wrote:Why should people be seen as unpatriotic for daring to question their government steamroller?
Its about the degree and the nature of the questioning. I question the 'government steamroller' all the time - but not on obviously critical and real issues like Muslim extremists.
Moon-Crane wrote:I don't believe, in reality, that the mainstream Democrats hold any different position from the Republicans on these issues anyway, whatever tub gets thumped as the current opposition.
Yea, they do. Even if their rhetoric belies it. Even above board, 'the war was wrong and we need to get out of there now' is quite different than most Republicans or right-wingers.Moon-Crane wrote:Take it to the ridiculous extreme. Obama gets in, continues to tighten personal freedom laws and decides that your posts are personal attacks and thus tantamount to terrorism and inciting people with anti-government feeling. Along with anti-Democrat sites you visit, that labels you as 'a threat to American freedom' so they arrest you and stick you in 'detention' until they can be bothered to get round to investigating. Give it four or five years, it doesn't matter. What a load of bollocks, eh? It would simply never happen? It's easy to laugh off at the moment of course. All those people released from Guantanamo Bay without any charges are obviously all really guilty of everything - just that the liberal laws are too relaxed to be able to convict them easily, is the real reason of course, isn't it?
Come on. Thats ridiculous. Do I really need to pinpoint the logical fallacies running through the above?Moon-Crane wrote:We're simply not all going to be 'turned into Muslims'
Really, with all my unsophistication and fear-mongering, I thought I really was going to be turned into a Muslim.Moon-Crane wrote:or blown up by terrorists by not having a non-Republican in the White House. Instilling fear is a despicable tactic to employ, and Bush/Cheney et al, have been just as guilty of employing it as those idiots in Al Qaeeda.
We are going to be 'blown up' by terrorists at some point - to some degree. The variable is what are we going to do in defense. That is influenced by our National leaders. Rational, legitimate, warranted concern is necessary for survival, not a 'despicable tactic'. Irrational, illegitimate, unwarranted fear of these legitimate concerns IS, however, a despicable tactic to employ. And furthermore, to equate Bush/Cheney policies, tactics and rhetoric in support of our security and to defend against liberal anti-Americanism and National complacency with Al Qaeda is woefully out of place.
JT wrote:No, I won't let it go. It continues to represent the major sentiment of French and EU elite (not necessarily the normal masses). Doesn't matter how long Mitterand has been dead for. I'm certain you can understand that its not a Mitterand issue. And no, its not 'equally dumb' what Rice said. It makes sense.
JT wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:
Do you seriously feel under threat from any terrorist activity? I certainly don't. That's not to say nothing can ever happen, but it's simply an untruth to scare people into thinking some deadly attack is imminent. You've got to weigh up the pros and cons, realistically, for all of life's potential dangers, otherwise you'd never leave a shelter in some remote Alaskan mountains.
You have got to be absolutely kidding us! It's historical record, my friend. Take away counter-terrorism efforts and attacks would be imminent. An 'untruth' to 'scare' people into thinking some deadly attack is imminent? I don't know what reality you live under, MC. I'm glad it's not mine.
Moon-Crane wrote:You mentioned in a previous post that it's "absolutely stunning, and dangerous, how liberals downplay the real threat" - how about looking at it as putting the 'threat' into perspective with other issues that people have to cope with. What sort of life is it to be suspicious of anyone and everyone around you? I'd rather be dead than living a 'life' where everything i say and do (allowed to do) or have ever done is monitored and controlled in the name of 'national security'.
we are not talking about irrational suspicion of everyone. I'm not suspicious of many nuns or Mormons. We're talking about the opposite - irrational lack of suspicion of anyone but our own government.
Moon-Crane wrote:Why should people be seen as unpatriotic for daring to question their government steamroller?
Its about the degree and the nature of the questioning. I question the 'government steamroller' all the time - but not on obviously critical and real issues like Muslim extremists.
Moon-Crane wrote:I don't believe, in reality, that the mainstream Democrats hold any different position from the Republicans on these issues anyway, whatever tub gets thumped as the current opposition.
Yea, they do. Even if their rhetoric belies it. Even above board, 'the war was wrong and we need to get out of there now' is quite different than most Republicans or right-wingers.
Moon-Crane wrote:Take it to the ridiculous extreme. Obama gets in, continues to tighten personal freedom laws and decides that your posts are personal attacks and thus tantamount to terrorism and inciting people with anti-government feeling. Along with anti-Democrat sites you visit, that labels you as 'a threat to American freedom' so they arrest you and stick you in 'detention' until they can be bothered to get round to investigating. Give it four or five years, it doesn't matter. What a load of bollocks, eh? It would simply never happen? It's easy to laugh off at the moment of course. All those people released from Guantanamo Bay without any charges are obviously all really guilty of everything - just that the liberal laws are too relaxed to be able to convict them easily, is the real reason of course, isn't it?
Come on. Thats ridiculous. Do I really need to pinpoint the logical fallacies running through the above?
I don't know why you should have the monopoly on the ridiculous.Moon-Crane wrote:We're simply not all going to be 'turned into Muslims'
Really, with all my unsophistication and fear-mongering, I thought I really was going to be turned into a Muslim.
Very good. Yet i believe the joke belies a strange belief.Moon-Crane wrote:or blown up by terrorists by not having a non-Republican in the White House. Instilling fear is a despicable tactic to employ, and Bush/Cheney et al, have been just as guilty of employing it as those idiots in Al Qaeeda.
We are going to be 'blown up' by terrorists at some point - to some degree. The variable is what are we going to do in defense. That is influenced by our National leaders. Rational, legitimate, warranted concern is necessary for survival, not a 'despicable tactic'. Irrational, illegitimate, unwarranted fear of these legitimate concerns IS, however, a despicable tactic to employ. And furthermore, to equate Bush/Cheney policies, tactics and rhetoric in support of our security and to defend against liberal anti-Americanism and National complacency with Al Qaeda is woefully out of place.
Moon-Crane wrote:My God, JT, let's just nuke the whole world now to keep us safe and get it over with. If being killed by a terrorist is the highest priority worry on your list in life, then i envy you.
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Moon-Crane wrote:My God, JT, let's just nuke the whole world now to keep us safe and get it over with. If being killed by a terrorist is the highest priority worry on your list in life, then i envy you.
I've been around the mill a bit on this debate so I'm jaded now, but that's basically the whole right/left argument summed up for me. Democrats want to preserve our civil liberties and Republicans want to give them all away. Who needs terrorists, eh?
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