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Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Planet?

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Is America the greatest nation in the history of the planet?

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No
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Total votes : 52

Postby Dorset Girl » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:30 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:One cannot blame the US or other countries in the western world for all the ills of the world.


No, of course not, and I certainly wouldn't say it was just the US either. IMHO it's organisations like the International Monetary Fund and WHO that are partly to blame.

The Western world can't be blamed for everything, but I think a lot of people have the 'feel-good' view which comes from contributing to charities, etc., but are possibly unaware of the negative impacts we have had on developing countries.
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:35 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:I will admit that I am not a big fan of Democracy through Force!

However, I also think that the Western world has done some really great things in regards to some of the 3rd world countries.

One cannot blame the US or other countries in the western world for all the ills of the world.


Africa is still a corrupt mess. I don't think we've done 'great things' there so much as tokenistic gestures. A strong African economy would be good for the whole world economy.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:25 pm

Another generally accepted view, through portrayal by the Western media, is that the whole of Africa is ravaged by corruption, debt, famine, civil war, etc. Parts of Africa are a corrupt mess. A fair bit of it is reasonably healthy and moving in the right direction at least - some countries are quite technologically advanced, internally, and just needs the Western companies allowing them to be patched in to the rest of the global networks. Some of these places probably have a better fibre optic infrastructure than the bloody UK.

I've recently been reading in Monocle magazine about places experiencing stability and growth, such as Botswana, and, surprisingly, Rwanda. These countries seem to be getting their shit in order now, and a more stable continent, for the pmost part, must be a genuine possibility in the next couple of decades.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby White Rabbit » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:33 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Well, I don't think power has a whole lot to do with "greatness". My point in mentioning America becoming powerful had to do more with the tenacity and drive of our nation to enable it to become so powerful in such a short amount of time. Given what we started with, I think that says an awful lot about us.

My italics.

What did you start with? One of the largest's and most resource rich continents in the world, borders with two huge, bountiful oceans, isolation from the crippling wars and conflicts of Europe, and not to mention all the technology you brought from Europe, which placed you on equal footing with that of the Old World. While there have been hiccups such as the Civil War, and the difficult expansion westwards, the who thing seems rather inevitable to me.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:21 am

White Rabbit wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:
Well, I don't think power has a whole lot to do with "greatness". My point in mentioning America becoming powerful had to do more with the tenacity and drive of our nation to enable it to become so powerful in such a short amount of time. Given what we started with, I think that says an awful lot about us.

My italics.

What did you start with? One of the largest's and most resource rich continents in the world, borders with two huge, bountiful oceans, isolation from the crippling wars and conflicts of Europe, and not to mention all the technology you brought from Europe, which placed you on equal footing with that of the Old World. While there have been hiccups such as the Civil War, and the difficult expansion westwards, the who thing seems rather inevitable to me.


We started with 13 colonies that were positioned along ONE coast! We most certainly didn't have those two oceans to start with. Once you got away from those original 13 colonies, the rest of what was to become the United States was vastly unexplored and wild!

You make it sound like the original inhabitants of the US were all highly educated intellectuals! Not exactly! Most of them were uneducated and poor. Yes, there were those who were educated and intelligent and had the knowledge of the Old World but on equal footing with Europe? I think not. That isolation that kept us from being invaded also kept us isolated from what was going on in other parts of the world.
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:28 am

Moon-Crane wrote:Another generally accepted view, through portrayal by the Western media, is that the whole of Africa is ravaged by corruption, debt, famine, civil war, etc. Parts of Africa are a corrupt mess. A fair bit of it is reasonably healthy and moving in the right direction at least - some countries are quite technologically advanced, internally, and just needs the Western companies allowing them to be patched in to the rest of the global networks. Some of these places probably have a better fibre optic infrastructure than the bloody UK.

I've recently been reading in Monocle magazine about places experiencing stability and growth, such as Botswana, and, surprisingly, Rwanda. These countries seem to be getting their shit in order now, and a more stable continent, for the pmost part, must be a genuine possibility in the next couple of decades.


I saw a report from (I think) Rwanda where they use massive Nescafe jars (the metal ones) to pick up the internet! It's amazing really, apparently they got quite a good connection from a series of these things lined up to connect rural areas (and there are plenty of those in Africa!).

There's no doubt we're force-fed a diet of African misery by the Western media which probably isn't too helpful but you can find the good news stories too if you look hard enough. Countries like Angola, Sudan and Equatorial Guinea have experienced economic booms of late by cashing in on their oil reserves. Once other nations follow suit your prediction of a stable Africa within 20 years could well come true.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Mr Blue Sky » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:40 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:We started with 13 colonies that were positioned along ONE coast! We most certainly didn't have those two oceans to start with. Once you got away from those original 13 colonies, the rest of what was to become the United States was vastly unexplored and wild!

You make it sound like the original inhabitants of the US were all highly educated intellectuals! Not exactly! Most of them were uneducated and poor. Yes, there were those who were educated and intelligent and had the knowledge of the Old World but on equal footing with Europe? I think not. That isolation that kept us from being invaded also kept us isolated from what was going on in other parts of the world.


Quite so. Between 1718 and 1783 Britain used the US as a penal colony and transported on average 1000 convicts a year over there. When Britain lost the 13 colonies they used newly discovered Australia (then named New Holland) to establish penal colonies. I'd suggest the vast majority of the population at that time was poor and uneducated.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:54 am

I was just thinking after posting my response to White Rabbit that I sounded really defensive! (mostly because I was)

Sometimes I think you guys post these questions because you know it gets me all riled up and nationalistic! :wink: :D
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:06 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:I was just thinking after posting my response to White Rabbit that I sounded really defensive! (mostly because I was)

Sometimes I think you guys post these questions because you know it gets me all riled up and nationalistic! :wink: :D


We used to have loads of big political debates on here Cat (some of which got out of hand!) and there haven't been any for ages. I picked a subject people feel passionately about as they always get the best and most interesting responses. So far the debate's been very respectful which is how I like it! If we got some jumped up turd on here spouting hateful nonsense I'd be the first to take action. In my opening post I said it probably looks like I'm bashing the US but that's not my intention at all - I'm genuinely interested in people's responses.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:23 am

Beer Necessity wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:I was just thinking after posting my response to White Rabbit that I sounded really defensive! (mostly because I was)

Sometimes I think you guys post these questions because you know it gets me all riled up and nationalistic! :wink: :D


We used to have loads of big political debates on here Cat (some of which got out of hand!) and there haven't been any for ages. I picked a subject people feel passionately about as they always get the best and most interesting responses. So far the debate's been very respectful which is how I like it! If we got some jumped up turd on here spouting hateful nonsense I'd be the first to take action. In my opening post I said it probably looks like I'm bashing the US but that's not my intention at all - I'm genuinely interested in people's responses.


No worries! I'm not upset or anything. It is indeed something I'm quite passionate about and I do, at times, get defensive (sometimes without reason but other times I do have reason).

I have been involved in a quite few political debates that have jumped ugly right quick! Things around here seem to remain pretty calm!

Part of the problem with forum discussions is that you sometimes have a hard time with the "tone" a person uses! It's difficult to tell what people are getting at when it's typed as opposed to actually hearing them say it!
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:28 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:Part of the problem with forum discussions is that you sometimes have a hard time with the "tone" a person uses! It's difficult to tell what people are getting at when it's typed as opposed to actually hearing them say it!


I agree, I always try and give people the benefit of the doubt.
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Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:15 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Yayyy! Things are back in sync with the world!

JT bashed Hillary! :D

How ANYONE who supports Bush has the balls to call anyone else a liar is beyond me. But hey, that is in part EXACTLY why America IS the greatest country in the history of the planet! We can disagree and argue and bitch about our govt. all day long and we won't get hung or beheaded for it!


What are Bush's lies? WMD in Iraq? Don't even go there! It doesn't take balls to highlight Hillary Clinton's lying relative to Bush's. It simply takes intellectual honesty on the part of the observer. I am not a huge Bush fan. But my criticisms of him either come from the ideological Right or are non-ideological (that is to say having to do with managerial competence). But most of the criticism of Bush from the Left is absolutely dishonest.

p.s I don't mean that you are 'dishonest', CAT. But the band wagon of the Bush attack machine is.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:35 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Well, I don't think power has a whole lot to do with "greatness".


Well, Cat, thats quite nice and liberal of you :wink: . But just to clarify, the 'power' i'm talking about is 'soft', 'hard' and otherwise, e.g. power of ideals, power of opportunity and upward mobility, power of freedoms, power of our legal system, power of equality of opportunity, as well as technological power, military power, economic power.


CatNamedRudy wrote:Having said that, one also has to look at WHO is it was that built America into what it is today! Had it not been for Europeans, America wouldn't be! At least not in the same state it's in. Our very core was founded by people of European descent and primarily the English!


Exactly. I've been stressing that we are really an extension of Western Europe, and our success is really an extension (turbocharged!) of the momentum of the European Renaissance. This is true to such an extent, moreover, that it might be a better argument to contend that "Western" culture is the greatest culture in the history of the planet. Its just that America is the most powerful (in 'hard' terms of course, but in my opinion in 'soft' terms as well) national representative of this culture - the standard bearer. But there are significant - and probably increasing - differences between America and the rest of the Western world. I think we (that is American ideological Right) are on the right path while the American Left and Western Europe may be in a death spiral. I am reading a book called "America Alone" that goes into this phenomenon.

Of course just about all of you in this forum disagree. Its like I'm on the campus of Cal Berkely!
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Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:48 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:I think that's enough now!

He just needs to pop in here and talk about how great Ann Coulter is and the world will all be right again! :)


Well, it probably comes as no surprise that I like Ann Coulter. She is funny, rapier-tongued to be sure, but usually correct. But not always right. Sometimes I say "Ann, you might want to revisit that one". But a lot of that is intentional hyperbole. I can understand why a lot of people -and not just liberals- don't like her. Many, many conservatives don't like her. The usual complaint is that she is vitriolic. It is a good question among us Rightwingers whether she causes damage to our cause and to what extent. She is often compared to the Left's Michael Moore. But I would honestly say the main difference is that Coulter is mostly right (excusing occasional wrongness and frequent hyperbole) while Moore is mostly wrong.

One of my favorite Coulterisms is "Liberals love 'nuance'. Loving their country (America) is too simple an emotion for them. To them, to be 'nuanced' they have to hate it a little." I love that! its funny and there is more truth in it than liberals will ever admit.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:55 am

White Rabbit wrote: While there have been hiccups such as the Civil War, and the difficult expansion westwards, the who thing seems rather inevitable to me.


Agreed. European Renaissance culture at its core, freedom from traditional European constraints and possessing of a 'clean slate', nearly unbounded and unexploited natural resources, and the hopes, expectations and dreams of some of Britain's rejects - the whole thing does seem rather inevitable.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:57 am

JT the Rightwing American wrote:She is often compared to the Left's Michael Moore. But I would honestly say the main difference is that Coulter is mostly right (excusing occasional wrongness and frequent hyperbole) while Moore is mostly wrong.


Really? you surprise me. :wink:
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:00 pm

Beer Necessity wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:We started with 13 colonies that were positioned along ONE coast! We most certainly didn't have those two oceans to start with. Once you got away from those original 13 colonies, the rest of what was to become the United States was vastly unexplored and wild!

You make it sound like the original inhabitants of the US were all highly educated intellectuals! Not exactly! Most of them were uneducated and poor. Yes, there were those who were educated and intelligent and had the knowledge of the Old World but on equal footing with Europe? I think not. That isolation that kept us from being invaded also kept us isolated from what was going on in other parts of the world.


Quite so. Between 1718 and 1783 Britain used the US as a penal colony and transported on average 1000 convicts a year over there. When Britain lost the 13 colonies they used newly discovered Australia (then named New Holland) to establish penal colonies. I'd suggest the vast majority of the population at that time was poor and uneducated.


Britain's flotsam, we were.
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Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:08 pm

Moon-Crane wrote: Some of these places (in Africa) probably have a better fibre optic infrastructure than the bloody UK.



But MC, isn't this due to a lack of initial infrastructure, making it easier to install it from the beginning? Its like that in places in the far east when comparing them to the US also. Just for that reason.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:08 pm

I think both the USA and Australia, show the versatility of humans, whatever the situation, to develop a community from nothing. Such vast growth from a relatively short period of time, with minimal interference and government by established systems. Whenever people criticise the destructive nature or negative affect of the human race on the planet, they should remember the great things that have been achieved.

The minority who hold power to govern, of whatever persuasion, tend to cause the most problems.
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Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:10 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:One cannot blame the US or other countries in the western world for all the ills of the world.


No, of course not, and I certainly wouldn't say it was just the US either. IMHO it's organisations like the International Monetary Fund and WHO that are partly to blame.

The Western world can't be blamed for everything, but I think a lot of people have the 'feel-good' view which comes from contributing to charities, etc., but are possibly unaware of the negative impacts we have had on developing countries.


The 'negative' impacts the Western world visit upon the developing countries are WAY over exaggerated by the Left.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:13 pm

JT the Rightwing American wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote: Some of these places (in Africa) probably have a better fibre optic infrastructure than the bloody UK.



But MC, isn't this due to a lack of initial infrastructure, making it easier to install it from the beginning? Its like that in places in the far east when comparing them to the US also. Just for that reason.


It's a big part of it, certainly. it's easier to implement a whole new system from scratch than replacing an existing system, but the existing infrastructure should be easily replaceable when needed, otherwise it's a pure inefficiency. I could understand the problems being greater if there was a whole different approach needed to the communications network, but replacing cabling made of one material for another shouldn't be difficult, to modernise networking capacity.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:22 pm

I've just found the following article, from 2005:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 93,00.html

I wonder what the results of the poll would be if it were taken again now?

DISCLAIMER: I'm just providing the link, not passing comment on the content just yet!
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Postby Dorset Girl » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:25 pm

JT the Rightwing American wrote:The 'negative' impacts the Western world visit upon the developing countries are WAY over exaggerated by the Left.


What sort of examples are you thinking of, JT? Again, I'm not pre-judging, it's something I'm unaware of and I'm interested in whether or not what you say is true. :)
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Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:28 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:

I also do not believe for one second that JT's pride had NOTHING to do with his feelings on the subject. If he weren't American, he wouldn't be making statements saying that America is the greatest country in the history of the planet! That's, at least in part, American pride talking! :wink:


I don't mean to say that I'm not emotionally invested in American pride, I just like to think that i'm intellectually honest and objectively argue. It cannot be done to perfection, but its not a matter of "Its my team right or wrong".
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Postby JT the Rightwing American » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:34 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:I've just found the following article, from 2005:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 93,00.html

I wonder what the results of the poll would be if it were taken again now?

DISCLAIMER: I'm just providing the link, not passing comment on the content just yet!


I have to roll my eyes :roll: when I hear of 'concerns' that we, the US, will 'make the world a more dangerous place'. Just the opposite. The world would be more dangerous without us. Plus, it seems the article is focused on current US governmental behavior. The poll questioned about greatness in a broad sense.
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