Under Oath

[CatNamedRudy]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one DHP!

Yep. It's just always been a principle of mine to tell the truth. As I said, there are ways of being tactful and delicate about it. I've not yet wound up with people hating me, themselves or anyone else for telling them the truth, but I have wound up with people hating me for lying to them.

I will say though, that I was bit offended with your notion that I think people are stupid because I try to spare their feelings.

[DHP]

DHP, do you believe that by lying to someone to spare their feelings, people are assuming they're stupid?

I'm not sure that's accurate - like I said, I don't think that whenever I tell a white lie, and I would think that most other people don't.

No, I was wrong to say that. I think that can be an assumption people make. Either that or you're the stupid one in thinking they won't find out the truth elsewhere. In terms of physical appearance, it's easy to hear from a friend that you look better than you used to, but how easy is it to find out from someone else that you aren't all that your friend made you out to be? Better to be honest in a loving, kind way, than to lie in a loving and kind way. Less likely to kill the trust in the friendship, or the friendship entirely, when the other person finds out the real truth.

I will say though, that I was bit offended with your notion that I think people are stupid because I try to spare their feelings.

Yeah, guess I was a bit hasty to say that. Sorry. It wasn't meant as a sweeping statement, just as something that can sometimes be the case.

[CatNamedRudy]

DHP, do you believe that by lying to someone to spare their feelings, people are assuming they're stupid?

I'm not sure that's accurate - like I said, I don't think that whenever I tell a white lie, and I would think that most other people don't.

No, I was wrong to say that. I think that can be an assumption people make. Either that or you're the stupid one in thinking they won't find out the truth elsewhere. In terms of physical appearance, it's easy to hear from a friend that you look better than you used to, but how easy is it to find out from someone else that you aren't all that your friend made you out to be? Better to be honest in a loving, kind way, than to lie in a loving and kind way. Less likely to kill the trust in the friendship, or the friendship entirely, when the other person finds out the real truth.

Sorry but again, I would have been very hurt had someone told me they couldn't tell I'd lost weight. There is no tactful way to put that. And there is no appropriate, tactful way to answer the adorable baby question either.

Lord help you DHP if you ever have a girlfriend who uses the old "Do I look fat in this dress" line on you! Because if you respond with anything other than "No dear! You look amazing and I want to throw you down on the floor and make mad passionate love to you right now" you will be in a world of hurt!

[Bee Gees Fan]

No, I was wrong to say that. I think that can be an assumption people make. Either that or you're the stupid one in thinking they won't find out the truth elsewhere. In terms of physical appearance, it's easy to hear from a friend that you look better than you used to, but how easy is it to find out from someone else that you aren't all that your friend made you out to be? Better to be honest in a loving, kind way, than to lie in a loving and kind way. Less likely to kill the trust in the friendship, or the friendship entirely, when the other person finds out the real truth.

Well, in the case of physical appearance, what looks good to one person might not look good to another. So if you lied and told someone they looked good when you thought they didn't, and then someone else told that person that they didn't look that great, then they might think it was just a difference of opinion and still believe their friend was being truthful.

[DHP]

DHP, do you believe that by lying to someone to spare their feelings, people are assuming they're stupid?

I'm not sure that's accurate - like I said, I don't think that whenever I tell a white lie, and I would think that most other people don't.

No, I was wrong to say that. I think that can be an assumption people make. Either that or you're the stupid one in thinking they won't find out the truth elsewhere. In terms of physical appearance, it's easy to hear from a friend that you look better than you used to, but how easy is it to find out from someone else that you aren't all that your friend made you out to be? Better to be honest in a loving, kind way, than to lie in a loving and kind way. Less likely to kill the trust in the friendship, or the friendship entirely, when the other person finds out the real truth.

Sorry but again, I would have been very hurt had someone told me they couldn't tell I'd lost weight. There is no tactful way to put that. And there is no appropriate, tactful way to answer the adorable baby question either.

Lord help you DHP if you ever have a girlfriend who uses the old "Do I look fat in this dress" line on you! Because if you respond with anything other than "No dear! You look amazing and I want to throw you down on the floor and make mad passionate love to you right now" you will be in a world of hurt!

First, if I didn't like the dress, I'd tell her. I think that's healthy in a relationship and I know a lot of couples who help each other in their fashion decisions. Secondly, if the dress did look good, I'd tell her that, and then I'd tell her that she always was and always is the most beautiful person I've ever known, which is the bare-faced truth in all its cruelty.

As for the ugly baby issue, I saw one today. Probably the ugliest baby you'd ever see to an outsider, for the simple fact it was born halfway through its pregnancy and is lacking many things including an immune system, and currently has blood pouring slowly into her brain, threatening her life in a real way. That baby is my cousin, and I love her very much. Her body isn't properly developed yet (having been born at 24 instead of 48 weeks of pregnancy) and she is so tiny and fragile that you can fit her in an adult's hand. Yet to me and all my family, she is wonderful, beautiful and lovely, and we currently care more about her and her survival than anyone else. Frankly, we're not idiots. We know that to an outsider, she's not ideal. But we don't care, and neither would the parents of an ugly-but-healthy baby if they really loved it. All that matters to us, same as should matter to the family of any child, is that they love that child, and they don't look for outside opinion to validate themselves if they really love that child.

[CatNamedRudy]

First, if I didn't like the dress, I'd tell her. I think that's healthy in a relationship and I know a lot of couples who help each other in their fashion decisions. Secondly, if the dress did look good, I'd tell her that, and then I'd tell her that she always was and always is the most beautiful person I've ever known, which is the bare-faced truth in all its cruelty.

That was not the question though......the question was "Do I look fat in this dress?" Not "Do you like my dress?"

I will also tell people if something looks good or doesn't look good on them. I'll tell my best friend if something makes her look fat or if it makes her ass look bad and I'll tell her if it makes her look great or if it makes her ass look great. But that's not the same thing!

There are often times when I look at the clothes people are wearing and I think "DAMN! Dont' you have any friends? They really should be telling you not to wear things like that!" I completely agree with you on the fashion issue! But again, that is not the same as your girlfriend asking you if she looks fat in this dress!

The baby story you related is not relevant! It would be relevant if some of your families friends told the baby's parents that she was ugly! Their feelings would be hurt! It certainly wouldn't change how they feel about their child. To them, she is the most beautiful baby in the world but their feelings would be hurt. (whether you choose to believe that or not!)

[DHP]

First, if I didn't like the dress, I'd tell her. I think that's healthy in a relationship and I know a lot of couples who help each other in their fashion decisions. Secondly, if the dress did look good, I'd tell her that, and then I'd tell her that she always was and always is the most beautiful person I've ever known, which is the bare-faced truth in all its cruelty.

That was not the question though......the question was "Do I look fat in this dress?" Not "Do you like my dress?"

I will also tell people if something looks good or doesn't look good on them. I'll tell my best friend if something makes her look fat or if it makes her ass look bad and I'll tell her if it makes her look great or if it makes her ass look great. But that's not the same thing!

There are often times when I look at the clothes people are wearing and I think "DAMN! Dont' you have any friends? They really should be telling you not to wear things like that!" I completely agree with you on the fashion issue! But again, that is not the same as your girlfriend asking you if she looks fat in this dress!

The baby story you related is not relevant! It would be relevant if some of your families friends told the baby's parents that she was ugly! Their feelings would be hurt! It certainly wouldn't change how they feel about their child. To them, she is the most beautiful baby in the world but their feelings would be hurt. (whether you choose to believe that or not!)

Sorry for wasting your time there with that irrelevant stuff, perhaps I didn't make my point clearly, but the point was there and I feel it addressed your question, and I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. And I did answer the girlfriend question. I'd tell her she always has been and always will be the most beautiful woman I've ever met. If she pressed me about her weight, I'd tell her honestly if I thought she was gaining weight in a loving, caring and sensitive way. Fact is she'd only ask if she thought it the case already anyway. My parents and several other couples I know respect each other enough to do that, and it only strengthens their relationship to know they can count on someone to be completely truthful with them, to know they can trust someone completely.

[CatNamedRudy]

You're not wasting my time. I just see the situations as completely different. (as far as the baby thing is concerned).

As for the girlfriend issue, all I can say is "sigh!"

I would never, ever ask a guy that question because I wouldn't want to put him that position. It's not a fair thing to ask anyone but your best friend IMHO. But if your answer to the "Do I look fat in this dress" was "I love you and always have and don't care what you look like", what your girl is going to hear is "Yes dear! You look like a cow in that dress and I think you are extremely fat!" Whether that's what you meant or not, that is what she would hear!

[DHP]

You're not wasting my time. I just see the situations as completely different. (as far as the baby thing is concerned).

As for the girlfriend issue, all I can say is "sigh!"

I would never, ever ask a guy that question because I wouldn't want to put him that position. It's not a fair thing to ask anyone but your best friend IMHO. But if your answer to the "Do I look fat in this dress" was "I love you and always have and don't care what you look like", what your girl is going to hear is "Yes dear! You look like a cow in that dress and I think you are extremely fat!" Whether that's what you meant or not, that is what she would hear!

Yeah, except I didn't say that.

And hey, check this out, you just trampled over the fact that my baby cousin is fighting for her life at only 2 days old with blood leaking into her brain by saying it was an irrelevant tangent (heaven forbid such a thing on an internet forum). So that's really 1 step up on being an ugly baby, that's more "I don't care that this child exists, I refuse to discuss her, let's discuss my thoughts."

Have a cigar, you've gone all the way and expressed your true feelings, regardless of how unpleasant they may come across.

(tongue firmly in cheek here by the way )

[Rodge]

And I did answer the girlfriend question. I'd tell her she always has been and always will be the most beautiful woman I've ever met.

= I am avoiding the subject cause I think you look fat, so I will try to flatter = Relationship over!

If she pressed me about her weight, I'd tell her honestly if I thought she was gaining weight in a loving, caring and sensitive way. Fact is she'd only ask if she thought it the case already anyway.

= DHP's knackers over!!

My parents and several other couples I know respect each other enough to do that, and it only strengthens their relationship to know they can count on someone to be completely truthful with them, to know they can trust someone completely.

But it is SO different when you have been married or together for 10+ years.

[DHP]

And I did answer the girlfriend question. I'd tell her she always has been and always will be the most beautiful woman I've ever met.

= I am avoiding the subject cause I think you look fat, so I will try to flatter = Relationship over!

If she pressed me about her weight, I'd tell her honestly if I thought she was gaining weight in a loving, caring and sensitive way. Fact is she'd only ask if she thought it the case already anyway.

= DHP's knackers over!!

My parents and several other couples I know respect each other enough to do that, and it only strengthens their relationship to know they can count on someone to be completely truthful with them, to know they can trust someone completely.

But it is SO different when you have been married or together for 10+ years.

Agreed, does depend what kind of relationship you're in. If you're in a casual relationship, yeah, fair enough, use the old b.s. Not like you're planning on spending the rest of your life with her. But if it's the real McCoy, which is the only kind of relationship I'm after personally (not knocking anyone else here) then frankly I'd want a level of honesty and trust in place so that we could be open with each other about everything, whatever the issue, like the couples I was referring to, some of which haven't been together for 10 years, they're just funny about this honesty stuff too.

[Rodge]

Agreed, does depend what kind of relationship you're in. If you're in a casual relationship, yeah, fair enough, use the old b.s. Not like you're planning on spending the rest of your life with her. But if it's the real McCoy, which is the only kind of relationship I'm after personally (not knocking anyone else here) then frankly I'd want a level of honesty and trust in place so that we could be open with each other about everything, whatever the issue, like the couples I was referring to, some of which haven't been together for 10 years, they're just funny about this honesty stuff too.

I can respect all that, but any relationship has to start from the beginning, and you are telling me that when you first meet a girl, who you quite like, and she asks, "how do I look?" are you really gonna reply, "Well you look beautiful, but your double chin/upper lip hair/veins are a little prominant in this light, shall we go somewhere less bright!"

[DHP]

Agreed, does depend what kind of relationship you're in. If you're in a casual relationship, yeah, fair enough, use the old b.s. Not like you're planning on spending the rest of your life with her. But if it's the real McCoy, which is the only kind of relationship I'm after personally (not knocking anyone else here) then frankly I'd want a level of honesty and trust in place so that we could be open with each other about everything, whatever the issue, like the couples I was referring to, some of which haven't been together for 10 years, they're just funny about this honesty stuff too.

I can respect all that, but any relationship has to start from the beginning, and you are telling me that when you first meet a girl, who you quite like, and she asks, "how do I look?" are you really gonna reply, "Well you look beautiful, but your double chin/upper lip hair/veins are a little prominant in this light, shall we go somewhere less bright!"

No, certainly not.

I'd use a question mark at the end rather than an exclamation mark. (hey, we're on a Frasier site )

Seriously though, I assume you're referring to when people start dating. If she asked how she looked, I'd focus on the physical attributes I liked. If she asked about specific attributes that she knew weren't what you'd associate with a supermodel, yeah, I'd be honest. But I'd like to think that she'd know be able to look objectively at her own body and know her imperfections (like the rest of us) and not put me in such a position in the first place. I'd like to think that if such a situation arose, she'd appreciate the honesty and sensitivity with which I answered. If not, we're not what each other are looking for, simple as that.

As you say, a long-lasting relationship that involves still loving each other well into old-age is based on trust and honesty (among other things) and I believe you need that every step of the way, including at the start.

[CatNamedRudy]

And hey, check this out, you just trampled over the fact that my baby cousin is fighting for her life at only 2 days old with blood leaking into her brain by saying it was an irrelevant tangent (heaven forbid such a thing on an internet forum). So that's really 1 step up on being an ugly baby, that's more "I don't care that this child exists, I refuse to discuss her, let's discuss my thoughts."

Have a cigar, you've gone all the way and expressed your true feelings, regardless of how unpleasant they may come across.

(tongue firmly in cheek here by the way )

I didn't say it was irrelevant tangent! I just said it didn't address the question at hand! Much like your dress answer didn't address the question at hand!

Seriously though, I do think I addressed my feelings about your baby cousin when you posted it on the day she was born. If I didn't then I should have. I hope everything goes well for her and for her parents. It's a horrible feeling to have a sick child and especially one that is so frail like that!

My very positive vibes are being sent across to the great divide as I post this!

::::::positive vibes to DHP's little baby cousin::::::

[DHP]

And hey, check this out, you just trampled over the fact that my baby cousin is fighting for her life at only 2 days old with blood leaking into her brain by saying it was an irrelevant tangent (heaven forbid such a thing on an internet forum). So that's really 1 step up on being an ugly baby, that's more "I don't care that this child exists, I refuse to discuss her, let's discuss my thoughts."

Have a cigar, you've gone all the way and expressed your true feelings, regardless of how unpleasant they may come across.

(tongue firmly in cheek here by the way )

I didn't say it was irrelevant tangent! I just said it didn't address the question at hand! Much like your dress answer didn't address the question at hand!

Seriously though, I do think I addressed my feelings about your baby cousin when you posted it on the day she was born. If I didn't then I should have. I hope everything goes well for her and for her parents. It's a horrible feeling to have a sick child and especially one that is so frail like that!

My very positive vibes are being sent across to the great divide as I post this!

::::::positive vibes to DHP's little baby cousin::::::

Yeah, apparently if all goes well, the doctors are hoping she'll be sent home on October 15th. Don't send them across the divide, send them south. My cousin's in Australia. And sorry, must have missed your reply to my post about my cousin. But thanks for your thoughts and sentiments.

[Rodge]

No, certainly not.

I'd use a question mark at the end rather than an exclamation mark. (hey, we're on a Frasier site )

Hey, give yourself a pat on the back for spotting that and publically correcting me so - well done

Seriously though, I assume you're referring to when people start dating. If she asked how she looked, I'd focus on the physical attributes I liked. If she asked about specific attributes that she knew weren't what you'd associate with a supermodel, yeah, I'd be honest. But I'd like to think that she'd know be able to look objectively at her own body and know her imperfections (like the rest of us) and not put me in such a position in the first place. I'd like to think that if such a situation arose, she'd appreciate the honesty and sensitivity with which I answered. If not, we're not what each other are looking for, simple as that.

As you say, a long-lasting relationship that involves still loving each other well into old-age is based on trust and honesty (among other things) and I believe you need that every step of the way, including at the start.

Well, all I can say is good luck! I hope that you do end up in a long term relationship and that you can be honest with yourself about your honesty.

[DHP]

Well, all I can say is good luck! I hope that you do end up in a long term relationship and that you can be honest with yourself about your honesty.

Interesting statement, although I must admit I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I'll go further and admit I've not a clue what you mean actually, but keep posting on this site, and I'll try and remember to revisit this thread in 50 years (if I'm still alive) and let you know how it turned out.

[Rodge]

Well, all I can say is good luck! I hope that you do end up in a long term relationship and that you can be honest with yourself about your honesty.

Interesting statement, although I must admit I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I'll go further and admit I've not a clue what you mean actually, but keep posting on this site, and I'll try and remember to revisit this thread in 50 years (if I'm still alive) and let you know how it turned out.

Sorry to be pessimistic, but one day you'll tell your wife that she looks fat on a day when she is feeling most insecure about herself, and that will be it. Hey! we might pass each other on our way to our final resting places, we can chat then!!

[DHP]

Well, all I can say is good luck! I hope that you do end up in a long term relationship and that you can be honest with yourself about your honesty.

Interesting statement, although I must admit I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I'll go further and admit I've not a clue what you mean actually, but keep posting on this site, and I'll try and remember to revisit this thread in 50 years (if I'm still alive) and let you know how it turned out.

Sorry to be pessimistic, but one day you'll tell your wife that she looks fat on a day when she is feeling most insecure about herself, and that will be it. Hey! we might pass each other on our way to our final resting places, we can chat then!!

Ah, very cynical... I like it! But I like to think that I'll marry someone who can be honest with herself and will know that she's gained a few. And besides, the woman I'm thinking of, it'll be like Coach at the start of Cheers, talking to his daughter, and telling her that her mother just got more and more beautiful every day of her life, and meaning it from the bottom of his heart.

As for your second comment... heehee!

[Agides]

Wow - I seem to have missed out on an interesting and lively debate here!!

In my experience, most people who are asking a question like "have I lost weight?" or "do I look fat in this dress" know the answer they want to hear, so any deviation from this is likely to upset them or cause some distress. I'm certainly guilty of this and also of giving an answer I know someone will want to hear if I think they need a confidence boost or their ego stroked, as it can actually be a bit of a tonic (I would always politely mention if someone had toilet paper on their shoe or lipstick on their teeth!) I am not belittling their intelligence or making light of my friendship/relationship with them, just sparing their feelings - and anyway, if you're good at it, no-one will ever know the difference between you meaning it and not meaning it!

I would never comment on anyone's child or choice of partner as beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder as it is not my place to judge (plus I am far from qualified to express an opinion). Without sounding like a cliche, I am much more interested in the personality as opposed to the outer shell.

Personal message to Mr Agides if he should happen upon this post: "Fine" is NOT an acceptable answer to any question I ask about my outfit/weight/general appearance or cooking!!!

[Rodge]

Wow - I seem to have missed out on an interesting and lively debate here!!

It has been fun, Thanks DHP & CNR? Alas; to bed for me.

[DHP]

Wow - I seem to have missed out on an interesting and lively debate here!!

It has been fun, Thanks DHP & CNR? Alas; to bed for me.

And me. Goodnight to all, and to all a goodnight!

[CatNamedRudy]

Ah, very cynical... I like it! But I like to think that I'll marry someone who can be honest with herself and will know that she's gained a few. And besides, the woman I'm thinking of, it'll be like Coach at the start of Cheers, talking to his daughter, and telling her that her mother just got more and more beautiful every day of her life, and meaning it from the bottom of his heart.

Ahhh, sweet, young innocent DHP!

In a few years, when you've been brutally honest with a girlfriend or two, I shall come to you with that famous Dr. Phil line: "How's that workin' out for ya?"

[Davey Boy]

I'm with you Agides shame I missed this one as it's been a good debate and to be honest I think there are strong and perfectly valid arguments for both. Personally I take each situation as it arises as I can think of examples of both options where a different scenario leads to a different answer. For example (albeit a bit unpleasant) imagine that you are with a friend who has just had an argument with a brother/spouse etc. If that person was to die suddenly whilst you are with them would it be wrong to tell the relative that your friends last words were to tell them they were sorry and they loved them? There is no way the relative would find out and you know it to be true, so would it be right to lie?

[ouroboros]

G'ah I missed out too. So just to clarify in relation to the poll, DHP you would tell Maris' lawyers that Niles' had feelings for Daphne thus leaving him completely bankrupt and allowing Maris to triumph even after everything she put him through and even though she was the one who had an afffair?