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Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Planet?

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Is America the greatest nation in the history of the planet?

Yes
15
29%
No
37
71%
 
Total votes : 52

Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby JT » Thu May 17, 2012 6:14 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:Also, since you mention Romney, i see he's jumping firmly on the standard hypocritical bandwagon for aligning with the xtian fundies and their pretend family value bullshit, which doesn't even pretend to mask homophobia, misogyny and general intolerance. All that twisting and selective choosing from the pretend words of jeebus as justification for not treating all human beings with unconditional equal rights.

I've no particular love for Obama, but at least he's finally, if meekly, come out before an election vote to say people of any sex should be able to marry each other without any problem. Shock fucking horror, treating people with equal rights, what's the country coming to. You've got the usual (religious) groups spitting their venom about it, you've got your usual idiots on Fox news (and other places) with their usual stupid denouncements and gavel-thumping, blah, blah.

All those despicable 'moralisers' make me sick, and if Romney want's to piggy-back with them he can go drop dead for all i care.


Funny. Awfully open-minded and tolerant of you. Are you sure the usual idiots are on Fox News? And where is the 'venom'? Within the religious groups or within Liberals? Are you spitting venom in your posts? Self reflection anyone?
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Moon-Crane » Thu May 17, 2012 10:43 pm

JT wrote:I am not comparing universities to the Neo Nazis or Black Panthers.

No, i didn't think you were. Nor was i considering only those groups in a list of less tolerant institutions.

JT wrote:Come on now. Don't be silly. Surely, I shouldn't have to show you or anyone else a case where a neo nazi group tried to establish chapters on college campuses to illustrate the bias and hypocrisy. This should be plainly obvious. I can't understand why so many liberals demand such 'proof' before they accept the clearly obvious.

Thanks for the condescension, that's nice selective editing. I said it probably wasn't illegal to set one up, but that it likely would in fact receive a lot of criticism and protest. i stand by that. If you can show me it is actually illegal to set up such a group then i'll retract my statement. Not sure how me saying that implies any denial, acceptance or defence of anything.

JT wrote:But too often if the racist group isn't white, they aren't called out and ridiculed out of existence. In the MeCha case its taken to a ridiculous level. Evidently within the diverse, open-minded and tolerant university culture these are just young Hispanics trying to find themselves amidst the hegemonic white European oppression. Never mind their motto is "For the race, everything, outside the race, nothing" ("Por La Raza todo, Fuera de La Raza nada"). Or they proclaim "we are a bronze people with a bronze culture–before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation–we are Aztlán." Diversity. ha. Or another similar illustration, how about the supposed main-stream organization National Council of La Raza? La Raza? Which by charter is 'focused on improving opportunities for Hispanics.' What if I wanted to start an organization called the 'National Council of The Race' with the charter 'to improve opportunities for Anglos'? Come on now.

I'm not quite sure what you think i'm saying about the point your making to tell me to come on, but, If you think there aren't exclusively 'white' groups in private colleges and certain universities then come on now yourself. I dislike racism of any nature. It's all pretty limiting from people of any races. White people (ok, men) do enjoy privilege though, and, no, that's not 'self-loathing' (not saying you'll play that card but it's a standard retort to such claims), it's a fact of life in our countries. We take advantage of it, consciously and unconsciously and get on with things.

But, to make it 100% clear. If this group you talk about are racist, then i'd direct a great big 'fuck off' to them, and would be willing to stand by your side to face up to them and publicly dissent, criticise and take apart their racist policies. There's no need for it. There's a difference between asking for equality and advocating a kind of reverse racism.

JT wrote:You have absolutely got to be kidding me? Why is this so hard for you? They are tolerant and diverse in one direction only. The only direction they tolerate. That by definition is intolerance and non-diversity. This should be readily apparent.

It's ok, if true, you have the Republican party that's equally as diverse and tolerant in the opposite direction. ;)

I simply disagree that universities and colleges are intolerant institutions (or anti-white), based on my own gathered evidence. Why is that so incredulous? I'm subscribed to medical and scientific blogs run by US scientific university professors as part of the fight against woowoo medicine and the teaching of bad science. One's PZ Meyers. I wouldn't call him intolerant and non-diverse (ok, he is intolerant to religious bullshit) - unless you class him as 'anti-white male' simply by being an outspoken advocate of equal rights for women and supporter of the feminist movement? (some do) Many of these science professors probably are what you'd disparagingly call liberal, but they just want to teach the scientific facts and get people to think critically in a scientific manner. I'd hold these teachers up as examples of colleges and universities not being places of indoctrination and intolerance - unless it's attempted indoctrination for thinking in a critical, scientific, manner or intolerance of bad science.

JT wrote:Again, you have got to be absolutely kidding me. I majored in computer science. I stayed out of the stupid zoo - the prevailing political and social culture. Stayed away from dumb ass History, Political Science, Sociology, Ethnic Studies people. Stayed away from campus protests and politically oriented groups. How can one really think that my survival proves that they are not overwhelmingly activist and liberal in culture.

No, not your survival - everybody's survival. Everyone comes out of education the way they want to come out of it. I don't believe this for a second, but i'd get the impression you must be fairly weak-minded if you think the only way to keep hold of your beliefs was to avoid those other perceived educational danger zones.

I've had to put up with family members being devout catholics. i can go into churches and listen to dumbass preachers without being 'turned' by their lies. I have in-laws that immerse me in their own cultural superstitions and what-have-you. I don't need to actively avoid that, or anything with which I disagree, to save my mind from corruption.

In relation to your point about the intolerance of educational institutions. While you're mainly talking in racial terms above, intolerance, to me, also includes the predominantly Republican leaning contingent that fights to oppress scientific fact (creationism over evolution, the creation and age models of the earth/universe, climate change denial, etc) along with the fight against personal equal human rights (personal choice of the individual over their own body, sexual preference, gender equality, etc). If you don't believe that's mainly the realm of the 'Right' then it's your turn to need to 'come on now'. For a group of people who want less government interference in people's lives for business, healthcare, welfare, taxes, etc, Republican supporters sure want to interfere a hell of a lot in their personal lives.

Sorry to kid you into so much disbelief. Keep calling me a liberal if you wish. It's actually not a dirty word, no matter how you, and some others, try to twist it as so.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Moon-Crane » Thu May 17, 2012 11:34 pm

JT wrote:Funny. Awfully open-minded and tolerant of you.

Thank you. I believe i am. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to play people at their own games. When people let it slide like water off a duck's back some people play the equivalent of your very own pithy liberal bumber sticker card. So, i've now decided to be vocal about calling idiots idiots, and accepting none of their bullshit. Surely nothing wrong with 'intolerance' against those things which are bigoted intolerance towards sections of society?

Are you sure the usual idiots are on Fox News?

Yes. Often presenting. Glenn Beck, for example.

And where is the 'venom'? Within the religious groups or within Liberals?

Within the religious groups, silly.

Are you spitting venom in your posts? Self reflection anyone?

No, i don't think so. I wouldnt say it's spitting venom to call out the intolerant religious figures, and their political followers, on what they are. If you need me to quote any religious people on their beliefs against human equality then i'm willing to do it. I assumed it was unnecessary. They're open enough about it. Of course, any alleged 'liberals' who show the same preferences for inequality i'll not lose sleep over their demise, either.

I don't attribute the beliefs to all religious people in the country any more than i'd be daft enough to attribute the fundamentalist side of islamist fools to all believers in islam. I have little time for the major religious figures who are given a platform to spout their tripe or any politicians who sit alongside them. And, to be clear, all religious leaders are equally as deluded in my eyes. It happens to be the Xtian mob for this chat as we happen to be talking about the USA.

I don't actually wish any ill on Romney, really. I was simply making a glib throwaway statement about how i could care less if his homophobic beliefs were lost to the world. I stand by the sentiment. Think of it as hoping for him to politically drop dead for siding with such beliefs.

Putting aside the political jousting wind ups - where do you stand on two people of the same sex being able to 'marry' and enjoy the same social/financial benefits of such a union? Is it such a big deal in your eyes? Should it really be a major issue for an election?
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Moon-Crane » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:39 pm

Hey, Cat. Aren't you proud to see Paul Ryan representing your state as Romney's right-hand man? ;)

If this Republican team somehow wins power then the US voters get what they deserve.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:55 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:Hey, Cat. Aren't you proud to see Paul Ryan representing your state as Romney's right-hand man? ;)

If this Republican team somehow wins power then the US voters get what they deserve.


The only good thing about Paul Ryan being VP is that it would mean he was no longer my congressman. Of course, he'd be the VP so that's a problem!

And no, the idiot voters (and in particular the stupid women) who vote for them will get what they deserve. The rest of are going to get fucked without the benefit of lubricant!
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Moon-Crane » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:13 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Hey, Cat. Aren't you proud to see Paul Ryan representing your state as Romney's right-hand man? ;)

If this Republican team somehow wins power then the US voters get what they deserve.


The only good thing about Paul Ryan being VP is that it would mean he was no longer my congressman. Of course, he'd be the VP so that's a problem!

Listening to bits of his speech, all i could picture was Franken's Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell them). :D

And no, the idiot voters (and in particular the stupid women) who vote for them will get what they deserve. The rest of are going to get fucked without the benefit of lubricant!

Yes, that is true. I don't want to be so flippant over a potentially political bizarro world.

I just can't picture how enough people could effectively vote against themselves to put this bunch in. Tax cuts for top earners at the expense of the rest of the population is surely the least useful thing to be doing at the moment? Older people and the middle classes (ie, the main voters) must be reading/hearing the actual facts and figures being released by neutral financial analysts?

Their financial forecasts for spending cuts are such blatant bullshit for anyone with a basic education in economics that i defy anyone to argue its defence.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Patrick » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:16 pm

No offense but I don't even think that America is a great nation, let alone the Greatest.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:32 pm

Offense taken.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Patrick » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:42 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:Offense taken.

What you people need is a shot of reality. Very few people around the world put America on a pedestal and that's putting it mildly.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:45 pm

Patrick wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:Offense taken.

What you people need is a shot of reality. Very few people around the world put America on a pedestal and that's putting it mildly.


Don't believe I said anywhere that America should be placed on a pedastal. I'm very well aware of reality thank you.

That said, when you insult my country I will get offended.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Patrick » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:24 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Patrick wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:Offense taken.

What you people need is a shot of reality. Very few people around the world put America on a pedestal and that's putting it mildly.


Don't believe I said anywhere that America should be placed on a pedastal. I'm very well aware of reality thank you.

That said, when you insult my country I will get offended.

I didn't. I think that the idea that because someone is of a nation he/she should automatically put that nation above every one else is puerile . I live well in my country, I abide by its laws and am involved in its politics, I am a concerned citizen. But I am well aware of its flaws and only give credit where credit is due. There're too many things that are dreadfully wrong in America for it to be called great. Do you realize that I live in the middle of a city and yet I haven't been mugged once in my entire life! I only used a gun during my time in the Army. I know plenty of people of all walks of life, not one of them has a gun. Barack Obama has tried to implement a health-care system that is only a shadow of ours and several others in Europe yet the opposition has put so many roadblocks in his way that the one that will finally be applied is only a parody of the initial one...
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:01 pm

I've never been mugged in my entire life either and I've spent many an hour in cities in the US that are supposedly notorious for "muggings." Never been the victim of violent crime either. Don't believe any of my have been either. Have we been victims of crime? Yes but I'm pretty sure there's crime in your country too.

And yes, you did insult my country and my intelligence by insinuating that I have no idea that there are problems in the US. I'm not an idiot and I'm not some jingoistic "America is perfect" person. I love my country and I'm proud of being an American. Not always so proud of the things my country or my government does but the two things are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Forever Jung » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:02 pm

:twisted: Right down to the name of the thread, this has got to be one of the most provocative threads masquarading as debate i've ever seen :?

I really can't see how you can say something negative without it being "yank bashing" or how any of our American members can say something in their defence without being seen as "waving the flag".

I must say I wouldn't be happy about a thread discussing the merits/evils of England.

Americans have the same problem we have.
Too many bent arsed polititions.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:13 pm

I don't necessarily agree that any criticism would be considered "Yank bashing". I think there is plenty of honest criticism in this thread. (which was started because I believe JT mentioned something once about America being the greatest nation in the history of the planet...it was kind of jab at him when BS started it). I can also take light hearted "bashing" (like I do to Barney about Canookia) but I know Patrick was serious when in essence he said America sucks! I take offense at that because it doesn't suck. It has it's issues but it doesn't suck. Some of the politicians suck and they suck hard but I defy Patrick to tell me that same isn't true about some of France's politicians! Of course apparently, France has no crime so that in and of itself makes it better than the US.

Anyway, I'm sorry Patrick that you cannot appreciate the US for the great country that it is. I'm glad I don't feel that way about certain countries that I don't live in.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Moon-Crane » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:47 pm

I do think you can debate the merits of a country without bashing or flag waving. Cat has managed it pretty well on here amongst others. I'd like to think i was critical, positively and negatively, in an objective way. I may certainly be harsh on individuals, or even groups, but never a nation as a whole.

There's more great than not great about America, in my opinion. The 'good' battle to keep the 'bad' to a minimum. Obviously people will debate what should be classed as good and bad in terms of economic systems, political ideology, etc - but the general belief of what is bad in terms of crime, freedoms, etc, is well in the right direction as far as i'm concerned.

I also like France a lot, and the good far outweighs the bad there. But, you'd have to be living in cloud cuckoo land to claim it's paradise in places like the Paris banlieue. Much as I'd rate London as one of the greatest cities in the world, i'm well aware that it's not short of it's problems. The positives far outweigh the negatives, though, and i'll play my part in trying to keep it that way.

You can't generalise any nation by your media's portrayal of them. None of us can really preach to places where we've never been/lived.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:53 pm

One thing I know for sure is that I'm really looking forward to my trip to London and Paris in October. Never been to either city and I'm excited to see what they have to offer.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Moon-Crane » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:27 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:One thing I know for sure is that I'm really looking forward to my trip to London and Paris in October. Never been to either city and I'm excited to see what they have to offer.


Two great cities. You'll not be short of things to see and stuff to do.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Patrick » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:43 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:I don't necessarily agree that any criticism would be considered "Yank bashing". I think there is plenty of honest criticism in this thread. (which was started because I believe JT mentioned something once about America being the greatest nation in the history of the planet...it was kind of jab at him when BS started it). I can also take light hearted "bashing" (like I do to Barney about Canookia) but I know Patrick was serious when in essence he said America sucks! I take offense at that because it doesn't suck. It has it's issues but it doesn't suck. Some of the politicians suck and they suck hard but I defy Patrick to tell me that same isn't true about some of France's politicians! Of course apparently, France has no crime so that in and of itself makes it better than the US.

Anyway, I'm sorry Patrick that you cannot appreciate the US for the great country that it is. I'm glad I don't feel that way about certain countries that I don't live in.

There is a world of nuances between "not great" and "sucks" and I take exception at your pretense that it isn't there just so you can't get all worked up about something I never said nor implied. There are hundreds of countries around the world and very few if any can be described as great without a dose of hypocrisy or ulterior motives from the people doing the describing.
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Sorry, but that's not exactly my idea of great. And that's only ONE example of you (people) not being great.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:05 pm

"You people." I love the way you group us all together like we're just one big giant machine who allow the govt. to do whatever they want. If you haven't noticed, there are a large portion of "us people" who do in fact care about creating health care for people who don't have it and care about feeding those who are unable to feed themselves and a great deal of other things. We're not all a bunch of self centered Republemmings who think everyone should just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and move on. But if that's the idea you have of all of us then I'm not going to change it.

I've heard wonderful things about Paris and about people my friends have met there. Contrary to popular opinion, my friends have said most people were very nice to them. Somehow I think you're one of those stereotypical types who hates Americans and has no clue that we're not all gun toting, flag waving, old lady killing, genocentric dimwits.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Patrick » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:32 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:"...

I've heard wonderful things about Paris and about people my friends have met there. Contrary to popular opinion, my friends have said most people were very nice to them. Somehow I think you're one of those stereotypical types who hates Americans and has no clue that we're not all gun toting, flag waving, old lady killing, genocentric dimwits.

As I said (but as usual you are only too happy to distort my words beyond recognition and then attack that awful caricature of myself that you hate so much one can almost hear the foam coming out of your mouth) not all Americans work against the establishment of a universal health care system but enough of them do to make it virtually impossible. I have many many American friends, but people like you would probably brand them traitors in a heart beat since they never say that they think America to be great by any imaginable yardstick. Instead they are very critical of it and never tire of telling me how awful they feel about a system that more often than not allows them at best to choose between two slightly different evils. A system that allows a President to send thousands of citizens to their death on account of false intelligence and to be rewarded of that crime by a cinched reelection. A system that allows to manipulate a people angered by an attack to agree to a war openly unrelated to said attack...
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:40 pm

If you don't mean to include all Americans then stop using the term "YOU PEOPLE." Sorry but that is an very demeaning and does make you look very stereotypical.

I don't consider anyone who criticized the US govt. a traitor. I have been extremely critical of our govt. and I absolutely agree with you on the war front. The fact that King George the Stupid and his Minions were able to lie to half the people in this country and get away with it still pisses me off. Hell, there are people in this country who still believe that somehow the Iraqis were responsible for 9-11. Not my fault people are dumb and it doesn't take anything away from the great things the US does have to offer.

That being said, you are basing your entire "not so great" idea strictly on our govt. I don't think that's fair. If I based based all of my opinions of places strictly on their govt. I would have lost out on some wonderful places that have some great things to offer.

The French govt. isn't exactly picture perfect and they've certainly had their issues. I won't let that cloud my vision when I visit though.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Frasiertime » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:32 pm

Patrick, you said" I have many many American friends, but people like you would probably brand them traitors in a heart beat since they never say that they think America to be great by any imaginable yardstick. Instead they are very critical of it and never tire of telling me how awful they feel"

I find it hard to believe that out of your many many American friends, not one of them can say anything great about America. I think you're taking this YOU PEOPLE thing a bit too far and it is offensive.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Patrick » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:21 pm

Frasiertime wrote:Patrick, you said" I have many many American friends, but people like you would probably brand them traitors in a heart beat since they never say that they think America to be great by any imaginable yardstick. Instead they are very critical of it and never tire of telling me how awful they feel"

I find it hard to believe that out of your many many American friends, not one of them can say anything great about America. I think you're taking this YOU PEOPLE thing a bit too far and it is offensive.

What I find offensive is the idea that to be considered the citizen of a country you have to like it, let alone think it is great. I mean even criminals don't lose their citizenship and yet they've done a lot more than badmouthing the mother land, they've actually hurt people. So when I hear someone be it an American, a French or some other member of a country that boasts a respect for freedom of expression, say that just because you are a citizen of a country that somehow obligates you to say nice things about it, it makes my skin crawl.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby Frasiertime » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:21 pm

No one said anything like that in these posts. I'm finished with this thread.
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Re: Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Pla

Postby JT » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:50 pm

Patrick wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:Offense taken.

What you people need is a shot of reality. Very few people around the world put America on a pedestal and that's putting it mildly.


And a shot of reality is what you need. If it is true that "Very few people around the world put America on a pedestal and that's putting it mildly", then that is an indictment of the vast majority, including you. I think the reality is that they do put us on a pedestal, but only to use as a punching bag due to their own inferiority complex. Truth hurts but its the truth.
What fresh hell is this?
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:15 am
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

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