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Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Planet?

A forum for any Off Topic Games / Polls / Quizzes. All registered members are able to start their own polls in this forum

Is America the greatest nation in the history of the planet?

Yes
15
29%
No
37
71%
 
Total votes : 52

Postby CatNamedRudy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:42 am

Slayer13 wrote:I forget what I voted, but the more I think about it, America is definatley not the greatest. I beleive there was a point in time when we were the most technologically advanced, but every country hs progressed so well. In the USA, there are a lot commercial business and such, like McDonalds every ten minutes away from a house, and that is exagerating on a tad.

Now, there are some sights to see, but I see some pictures you all post in 'Snapshots of your life' and pine to go there. I mean yes, here there are: The Statue of Liberty, Grand Canyon and The Rocky Mountains, but I think there is so much more, especially in Europe. I would say for sight seeing, that USA can be far down the list, or maybe its the fact that I have seen these sights more than once and am tired of them.

Economy varries everywhere, which I know is important for living conditions. But I would not mind switching to another type of currency, and think I could adapt. Weather is another factor for me, like in some parts of Ireland where I was this summer, were beautiful all the time. But in Chicago, we had rain, heat (not so bad this summer...so far), a rough winter.

But all in all I would love to move, maybe even in a heartbeat, the only rough thing is leaving your family. But I have a lot reason to leave, and could definatley see myself, settling down in the city of Parm, Italy.

All in all, my answer is an underlined NO, American is not the greatest nation.


That just boggles my mind.

Seriously. That someone could say without a shadow of a doubt that they would be more than happy to pick up and move out of the United States.

I can't imagine doing that without good reason. And you'd have to drag my ass out of here even then.

Tired of seeing things like the Grand Canyon? Wow!

I can see maybe living in another country for a while just for the experience but to WANT to move out because of a "grass is greener" feeling? I don't get that.

It actually makes me rather sad to know that there are people out there that don't want to live here. (I mean Americans, not those who live elsewhere already).
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Postby JT » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:33 am

Moon-Crane wrote:Anyone got any comments on the passing of HR6304 which grants even more monitoring powers introduced by the FISA 'wiretapping' bill, as well as retrospective legislation to grant immunity from prosecution for anyone involved in co-operating with the government over all the surveillance carried out before the practices were exposed to the public.

Clips of dissenting senators over the vote

Congress vote by Senator, (with link to the Bill if anyone has insomnia)

NY Times article.


Yea, it's damn great. Its at least somewhat comforting to know that, despite all the dog-and-pony rhetoric for the cameras, even some Democrats really know what is important and whats just a lot of hot air.
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Postby JT » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:38 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Slayer13 wrote:I forget what I voted, but the more I think about it, America is definatley not the greatest. I beleive there was a point in time when we were the most technologically advanced, but every country hs progressed so well. In the USA, there are a lot commercial business and such, like McDonalds every ten minutes away from a house, and that is exagerating on a tad.

Now, there are some sights to see, but I see some pictures you all post in 'Snapshots of your life' and pine to go there. I mean yes, here there are: The Statue of Liberty, Grand Canyon and The Rocky Mountains, but I think there is so much more, especially in Europe. I would say for sight seeing, that USA can be far down the list, or maybe its the fact that I have seen these sights more than once and am tired of them.

Economy varries everywhere, which I know is important for living conditions. But I would not mind switching to another type of currency, and think I could adapt. Weather is another factor for me, like in some parts of Ireland where I was this summer, were beautiful all the time. But in Chicago, we had rain, heat (not so bad this summer...so far), a rough winter.

But all in all I would love to move, maybe even in a heartbeat, the only rough thing is leaving your family. But I have a lot reason to leave, and could definatley see myself, settling down in the city of Parm, Italy.

All in all, my answer is an underlined NO, American is not the greatest nation.


That just boggles my mind.

Seriously. That someone could say without a shadow of a doubt that they would be more than happy to pick up and move out of the United States.

I can't imagine doing that without good reason. And you'd have to drag my ass out of here even then.

Tired of seeing things like the Grand Canyon? Wow!

I can see maybe living in another country for a while just for the experience but to WANT to move out because of a "grass is greener" feeling? I don't get that.

It actually makes me rather sad to know that there are people out there that don't want to live here. (I mean Americans, not those who live elsewhere already).


Cat, I for one can only respond to something coherent. Otherwise, its like a monkey _ _ _ _ _ _ _ a football. On second thought, maybe I should get out of all this rain in San Diego and move to Ireland.
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Postby JT » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:43 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:Clear difference between McCain and Obama over Iraq

I think McCain's misguided here. I'm sure much of the violence is caused purely by America's presence there. If US troops pulled out gradually I'm sure we'd see a gradual decline in violence.


..... to what fate, then, Iraq and the rest of the middle east? Less violence in the absence of American influence?
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:18 am

JT wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Clear difference between McCain and Obama over Iraq

I think McCain's misguided here. I'm sure much of the violence is caused purely by America's presence there. If US troops pulled out gradually I'm sure we'd see a gradual decline in violence.


..... to what fate, then, Iraq and the rest of the middle east? Less violence in the absence of American influence?


The Iraqi government will still need heavily supporting in terms of finances and equipment for years to come but a large part of the problem over there exists purely because of resentment towards the US led occupation. Remove American troops, you remove a large part of the reason for the insurgency. Afghanistan's a different matter, obviously. Our military efforts should be focused on making sure the Taliban don't get a strong foothold there again.

What do you think of ideas for the US and other countries buying up the poppy fields over there, JT? I think it's a great idea. They can be used to produce morphine (and codeine, I believe) in our health services, and at the same time removing the Taliban's main source of income.
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Postby Slayer13 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:09 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Slayer13 wrote:I forget what I voted, but the more I think about it, America is definatley not the greatest. I beleive there was a point in time when we were the most technologically advanced, but every country hs progressed so well. In the USA, there are a lot commercial business and such, like McDonalds every ten minutes away from a house, and that is exagerating on a tad.

Now, there are some sights to see, but I see some pictures you all post in 'Snapshots of your life' and pine to go there. I mean yes, here there are: The Statue of Liberty, Grand Canyon and The Rocky Mountains, but I think there is so much more, especially in Europe. I would say for sight seeing, that USA can be far down the list, or maybe its the fact that I have seen these sights more than once and am tired of them.

Economy varries everywhere, which I know is important for living conditions. But I would not mind switching to another type of currency, and think I could adapt. Weather is another factor for me, like in some parts of Ireland where I was this summer, were beautiful all the time. But in Chicago, we had rain, heat (not so bad this summer...so far), a rough winter.

But all in all I would love to move, maybe even in a heartbeat, the only rough thing is leaving your family. But I have a lot reason to leave, and could definatley see myself, settling down in the city of Parm, Italy.

All in all, my answer is an underlined NO, American is not the greatest nation.


That just boggles my mind.

Seriously. That someone could say without a shadow of a doubt that they would be more than happy to pick up and move out of the United States.

I can't imagine doing that without good reason. And you'd have to drag my ass out of here even then.

Tired of seeing things like the Grand Canyon? Wow!

I can see maybe living in another country for a while just for the experience but to WANT to move out because of a "grass is greener" feeling? I don't get that.

It actually makes me rather sad to know that there are people out there that don't want to live here. (I mean Americans, not those who live elsewhere already).


Well I have seen these things on a few occasions, but thats not the only reason, just how America's economy is going into a recession, and how the government is...just doesnt please me. I'm not saying I would move just anywhere, but their are few place that I wouldnt chose.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:38 pm

Anywhere you go in the developed world you're going to encounter economic issues Slayer! Every developed country in the world depends on crude oil and it's oil prices that are causing a great deal of the other problems.

Again, I just can't imagine getting "tired" of seeing some of the things the US has to offer. I've seen The Statue of Liberty numerous times and she still has the same effect on me. Every time I see a mountain range, I'm in awe. The coastlines amaze me still. Tiring of these things is foreign concept to me.

I'm not saying I don't want to go other places and see other things. I love to travel and seeing new places and experiencing different cultures is wonderful.

It's just that, like I said, I think you have a "grass is greener" feeling when it comes to some places in Europe.

Any industrialized country in the world has problems.

To each his own I guess. As I said though, I just could never pack up and leave this country and live somewhere else for the rest of my life. Unless I had no choice. For a while, sure. For the experience but not "in a heartbeat" and not forever.

America is my home and it will always be my home. I love this place and would never choose to live anywhere else.
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Postby Slayer13 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:09 pm

It's a simple statement, when you say "every country has its problems" but that will never change, and I am not trying to avoid all problems in life, I am going somewhere, where there are less. America's suffering has just begun. And people say it is a mess now, well I have reason to beleive that in the next five years it will plummet to rock bottom.

Also, the environment of this country, full of arrogance, and self-centered people. It makes me wonder about this country, when people in Botswana or Namibia seem to be happier people than the ones here, even though they probably have more hardships. And would walk miles to get to go sit on a rock, and be taught in Tanzania, while here kids rebel against anything like that.

I am tired of the negativity, not just the government or landscapes. People have little or no regard for people they don't know or who are different than them. But thats no suprise, look through the timeline, with slavery, a civil war, Salem Witch trials, and discriminating against pretty much anyone, black, mexican, women, or homosexual...any most of the severity has gone, but it is still there. Why not want to go to place where you feel welcome and accepted?
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:48 am

Slayer13 wrote:It's a simple statement, when you say "every country has its problems" but that will never change, and I am not trying to avoid all problems in life, I am going somewhere, where there are less. America's suffering has just begun. And people say it is a mess now, well I have reason to beleive that in the next five years it will plummet to rock bottom.

Also, the environment of this country, full of arrogance, and self-centered people. It makes me wonder about this country, when people in Botswana or Namibia seem to be happier people than the ones here, even though they probably have more hardships. And would walk miles to get to go sit on a rock, and be taught in Tanzania, while here kids rebel against anything like that.

I am tired of the negativity, not just the government or landscapes. People have little or no regard for people they don't know or who are different than them. But thats no suprise, look through the timeline, with slavery, a civil war, Salem Witch trials, and discriminating against pretty much anyone, black, mexican, women, or homosexual...any most of the severity has gone, but it is still there. Why not want to go to place where you feel welcome and accepted?


I definitely have some sympathy with you here, Slayer. That old adige that 'money doesn't make you happy' is quite true IMO. I dug around for some research on this and found it quite interesting:-

When individuals were asked:

"Taking all things together, would you say you are: 1. Very happy, 2. Rather happy, 3. Not very happy, or 4. Not at all happy?" countries achieved the following rankings (Dr. Inglehart has not released the complete list):

Ranking of the World's Happiest Countries

1. Nigeria
2. Mexico
3. Venezuela
4. El Salvador
5. Puerto Rico

Ronald Inglehart et al. (eds.) HUMAN BELIEFS AND VALUES: A CROSS-CULTURAL SOURCEBOOK BASED ON THE 1999-2002 VALUES SURVEYS (Mexico City: Siglo XXI, 2004).


I'm not surprised the US doesn't feature in that list. There's another table from the same researcher regarding 'subjective well-being' and the US were listed 15th...

1. Puerto Rico
2. Mexico
3. Denmark
4. Colombia
5. Ireland
6. Iceland
7. N. Ireland
8. Switzerland
9. Netherlands
10. Canada
11. Austria
12. El Salvador
13. Venezuela
14. Luxembourg
15. U.S.
16. Australia
17. New Zealand
18. Sweden
19. Nigeria
20. Norway


Apparently the UK didn't take part in the survey. I wonder where we'd have come?
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Postby Dorset Girl » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:29 am

Not really directly on topic, but has anyone seen the Google Earth graphs of oil usage that I put on the Intellect Thread a few days ago? I don't suppose there's that much to say about them really, but they look pretty. :lol:
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:44 am

Dorset Girl wrote:Not really directly on topic, but has anyone seen the Google Earth graphs of oil usage that I put on the Intellect Thread a few days ago? I don't suppose there's that much to say about them really, but they look pretty. :lol:


I thought they were interesting. Not really surprising, but interesting all the same. We need to find an alternative to oil and quickly. I'm keeping a close eye on the hydrogen powered technology, hopefully my next car will be a hybrid of some sort.
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Postby JT » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:54 am

Slayer13 wrote:It's a simple statement, when you say "every country has its problems" but that will never change, and I am not trying to avoid all problems in life, I am going somewhere, where there are less. America's suffering has just begun. And people say it is a mess now, well I have reason to beleive that in the next five years it will plummet to rock bottom.

Also, the environment of this country, full of arrogance, and self-centered people. It makes me wonder about this country, when people in Botswana or Namibia seem to be happier people than the ones here, even though they probably have more hardships. And would walk miles to get to go sit on a rock, and be taught in Tanzania, while here kids rebel against anything like that.

I am tired of the negativity, not just the government or landscapes. People have little or no regard for people they don't know or who are different than them. But thats no suprise, look through the timeline, with slavery, a civil war, Salem Witch trials, and discriminating against pretty much anyone, black, mexican, women, or homosexual...any most of the severity has gone, but it is still there. Why not want to go to place where you feel welcome and accepted?


Folks, need I say anything?
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:46 am

JT wrote:
Slayer13 wrote:It's a simple statement, when you say "every country has its problems" but that will never change, and I am not trying to avoid all problems in life, I am going somewhere, where there are less. America's suffering has just begun. And people say it is a mess now, well I have reason to beleive that in the next five years it will plummet to rock bottom.

Also, the environment of this country, full of arrogance, and self-centered people. It makes me wonder about this country, when people in Botswana or Namibia seem to be happier people than the ones here, even though they probably have more hardships. And would walk miles to get to go sit on a rock, and be taught in Tanzania, while here kids rebel against anything like that.

I am tired of the negativity, not just the government or landscapes. People have little or no regard for people they don't know or who are different than them. But thats no suprise, look through the timeline, with slavery, a civil war, Salem Witch trials, and discriminating against pretty much anyone, black, mexican, women, or homosexual...any most of the severity has gone, but it is still there. Why not want to go to place where you feel welcome and accepted?


Folks, need I say anything?


Ahh, I was rather looking forward to your response JT!

Do you not rate the happiness of the inhabitants as a factor in determining how great a country is?
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Postby Moon-Crane » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:31 pm

JT wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Anyone got any comments on the passing of HR6304 which grants even more monitoring powers introduced by the FISA 'wiretapping' bill, as well as retrospective legislation to grant immunity from prosecution for anyone involved in co-operating with the government over all the surveillance carried out before the practices were exposed to the public.

Clips of dissenting senators over the vote

Congress vote by Senator, (with link to the Bill if anyone has insomnia)

NY Times article.


Yea, it's damn great. Its at least somewhat comforting to know that, despite all the dog-and-pony rhetoric for the cameras, even some Democrats really know what is important and whats just a lot of hot air.


I thought one of the things you loved most, that made the USofA greater than any other nation, was the freedom?

If you're creating a society of control and surveillance to keep yourself free - how does that work? What rights are you actually fighting to protect by taking away people's right to privacy. Seeing how everything that has previously been implemented by governments has been misused and abused - i can't see how this would be any different - in a model world it may seem like a good idea, but you're dealing with a pretty broken system (even if it seems the best one).

There are reasons of due process as to why warrants were needed to investigate any such suspicions in the past. Free societies are based on community trust. Such monitoring laws are the basis of automatic suspicion and proving yourself innocent rather than having to be proven guilty. It just sounds detrimental to everyday human interaction - we're not robots, no matter how much easier it would be for many people if we were.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:43 pm

JT wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Clear difference between McCain and Obama over Iraq

I think McCain's misguided here. I'm sure much of the violence is caused purely by America's presence there. If US troops pulled out gradually I'm sure we'd see a gradual decline in violence.


..... to what fate, then, Iraq and the rest of the middle east? Less violence in the absence of American influence?


I just need to clear my head here. I get the general feeling throughout this thread that you only really care (ultimately) about the USofA at the expense of everywhere else? Am i mistaken? I just don't see the correlation between interfering in every other part of the globe rather than just shutting up shop and looking after your own problems? Who cares if the Middle East countries all blow each other up, if that's a potential outcome - leave em to it.

I can understand you may want every country to run to the US model, but if they don't want to is it not just a case of more fool them and leave them to it? The US can be self-sufficient in every way imaginable, can't it?

Back to the article. i'm not sure if McCain is saying he will definitely bring Bin Laden to justice if elected? If so, that's a bold statement - to what lengths do you eventually go to to not make a liar out of yourself? A strange choice of words when saying something like he'd never give up the pursuit for justice would be more logical?
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:07 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:Back to the article. i'm not sure if McCain is saying he will definitely bring Bin Laden to justice if elected? If so, that's a bold statement - to what lengths do you eventually go to to not make a liar out of yourself? A strange choice of words when saying something like he'd never give up the pursuit for justice would be more logical?


Hehe, yeah, but he won't care being made a liar if he's sat sipping bourbon in the oval office. It's just typical Republican rhetoric in election year. McCain knows that's what the American public wants to hear, and the particularly stupid ones might actually believe him. Do people actually think the Bush administration have NOT been doing everything feasibly possible to catch Bin Laden? I'm not saying he's pandering to any particular audience or anything... :wink:
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Postby Moon-Crane » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:41 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Back to the article. i'm not sure if McCain is saying he will definitely bring Bin Laden to justice if elected? If so, that's a bold statement - to what lengths do you eventually go to to not make a liar out of yourself? A strange choice of words when saying something like he'd never give up the pursuit for justice would be more logical?


Hehe, yeah, but he won't care being made a liar if he's sat sipping bourbon in the oval office. It's just typical Republican rhetoric in election year. McCain knows that's what the American public wants to hear, and the particularly stupid ones might actually believe him. Do people actually think the Bush administration have NOT been doing everything feasibly possible to catch Bin Laden? I'm not saying he's pandering to any particular audience or anything... :wink:


Well, yes it's a complete non-statement.

We'll have to invoke the wiretapping law on all of McCain's communications to find out exactly how he knows where to find and capture him if he gets into power ;)
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:15 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:We'll have to invoke the wiretapping law on all of McCain's communications to find out exactly how he knows where to find and capture him if he gets into power ;)


:lol:
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:04 am

Surely Obama's a shoe-in now?

As Barack Obama continues to charm European leaders (a couple have openly stated they hope he wins the Presidency rather than McCain), Senator McCain continues to make a series of high-profile gaffs that raise worrying questions about his age (remember we talked about this before, JT?).

Personally I think the recent Iraqi/Pakistani border ( :lol: ) gaff has more to do with him trying to align himself with the large number of potential Republican voters who've never picked up a map in their lives, rather than the onset of senile dementia... :wink:
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Postby Moon-Crane » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:30 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:Surely Obama's a shoe-in now?

As Barack Obama continues to charm European leaders (a couple have openly stated they hope he wins the Presidency rather than McCain), Senator McCain continues to make a series of high-profile gaffs that raise worrying questions about his age (remember we talked about this before, JT?).

Personally I think the recent Iraqi/Pakistani border ( :lol: ) gaff has more to do with him trying to align himself with the large number of potential Republican voters who've never picked up a map in their lives, rather than the onset of senile dementia... :wink:


I guess it's pretty easy to dismiss such things - and JT certainly will :lol: All the gaffs attributed to GW have never really affected anything really.

I'm personally more bothered about the position both candidates tow on the whole Iran/Israel nonsense.

Iran wants Nuclear power and so they're 'obviously' looking to develop weapons first and foremost (irrelevant that the G8 are all spouting the virtues of moving to Nuclear powered energy in our own nations). Evil Iran must be warned and threatened off such a direction. Israel clearly threatens Iran with Nuclear attack if they continue to develop their own Nuclear programme.... and that's all lovely and fine - no censure or condemnation by the West, led by the US. Iran, however, warns it will defend itself from any attack by Israel and they're again the aggressor stirring up trouble in the region?

Now, Iran have no Nuclear weapons - but they are backed by a pretty formidable military nation in Russia, with a second ally in China. They've warned that any attack on Iran will result in 'grave consequences'.

At the worst-case scenario, Iran continues its programme, Israel fires on Iran, Russia fires on Israel, US fires on Russia, China... well, you get the picture.

The main worry for me is that the 'West' backs every swagger that Israel makes, and all are making threats towards Iran. What is it about Israel that makes them untouchable to criticism?

I get the feeling they're going to play a big part in the lives of whoever gets into power.
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:49 am

Moon-Crane wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Surely Obama's a shoe-in now?

As Barack Obama continues to charm European leaders (a couple have openly stated they hope he wins the Presidency rather than McCain), Senator McCain continues to make a series of high-profile gaffs that raise worrying questions about his age (remember we talked about this before, JT?).

Personally I think the recent Iraqi/Pakistani border ( :lol: ) gaff has more to do with him trying to align himself with the large number of potential Republican voters who've never picked up a map in their lives, rather than the onset of senile dementia... :wink:


I guess it's pretty easy to dismiss such things - and JT certainly will :lol: All the gaffs attributed to GW have never really affected anything really.


Well, they could have affected his chances of becoming Pres if the Democrats hadn't fielded two comparatively weak candidates in 2000 and 2004. I always wonder what a Gore led government's reaction would have been to 9/11. If Clinton was any yardstick it would probably have been more measured. It's obviously impossible to say, I just wonder if we'd have seen such an escalation in hostilities if the US had a more liberal-minded administration these last 8 years...

The main worry for me is that the 'West' backs every swagger that Israel makes, and all are making threats towards Iran. What is it about Israel that makes them untouchable to criticism?

I get the feeling they're going to play a big part in the lives of whoever gets into power.


I've a feeling the number of Jewish US senators plays a part, who see Israel as the 'motherland'. The US has certainly shown tremendous political bias in that region over the years, and it's certainly affected their reputation as a liberal, fair-minded nation.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:05 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:Well, they could have affected his chances of becoming Pres if the Democrats hadn't fielded two comparatively weak candidates in 2000 and 2004. I always wonder what a Gore led government's reaction would have been to 9/11. If Clinton was any yardstick it would probably have been more measured. It's obviously impossible to say, I just wonder if we'd have seen such an escalation in hostilities if the US had a more liberal-minded administration these last 8 years...


Is that the sound of JT having a coronary? :lol:

I don't think it would be that much different now. A slightly different path to more or less the same place.

I've a feeling the number of Jewish US senators plays a part, who see Israel as the 'motherland'. The US has certainly shown tremendous political bias in that region over the years, and it's certainly affected their reputation as a liberal, fair-minded nation.

It's just another religious battleground. I dislike that any critic of Israel and or the problems with Zionism is automatically labelled as an Antisemite. :roll: Why does everything have to be extremes?

If a region ever highlighted human religious intolerance i guess it's the Middle East.
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Postby JT » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:57 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
JT wrote:
Slayer13 wrote:It's a simple statement, when you say "every country has its problems" but that will never change, and I am not trying to avoid all problems in life, I am going somewhere, where there are less. America's suffering has just begun. And people say it is a mess now, well I have reason to beleive that in the next five years it will plummet to rock bottom.

Also, the environment of this country, full of arrogance, and self-centered people. It makes me wonder about this country, when people in Botswana or Namibia seem to be happier people than the ones here, even though they probably have more hardships. And would walk miles to get to go sit on a rock, and be taught in Tanzania, while here kids rebel against anything like that.

I am tired of the negativity, not just the government or landscapes. People have little or no regard for people they don't know or who are different than them. But thats no suprise, look through the timeline, with slavery, a civil war, Salem Witch trials, and discriminating against pretty much anyone, black, mexican, women, or homosexual...any most of the severity has gone, but it is still there. Why not want to go to place where you feel welcome and accepted?


Folks, need I say anything?


Ahh, I was rather looking forward to your response JT!

Do you not rate the happiness of the inhabitants as a factor in determining how great a country is?


We're happy when we bitch and moan and say we're not happy.
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Postby JT » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:19 am

Moon-Crane wrote: The US has certainly shown tremendous political bias in that region over the years, and it's certainly affected their reputation as a liberal, fair-minded nation.


Gee, I wonder why. It's only the sole classically liberal, modern country in the region - and who has been the target of extinction by it's dysfunctional neighbors.
Moon-Crane wrote: I dislike that any critic of Israel and or the problems with Zionism is automatically labelled as an Antisemite. :roll: Why does everything have to be extremes?


Some make that mistake, but I don't. It's not antisemetic, or at least not necessarily. However, it is interesting to observe the sea change in the last 20 years or so regarding opinions of the Left over Israel. The left used to see Israel/Jews as victims. Now they seem to lump Israel in with what they percieved as the oppressive and powerful. The powerful are not always wrong - they can be right.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:02 pm

JT wrote:We're happy when we bitch and moan and say we're not happy.


:lol:

Could be a strapline for Al Qaeda and all those other whiny mules.
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