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Is America The Greatest Nation In The History Of The Planet?

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Is America the greatest nation in the history of the planet?

Yes
15
29%
No
37
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Total votes : 52

Postby Mr Blue Sky » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:41 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:My God, JT, let's just nuke the whole world now to keep us safe and get it over with. If being killed by a terrorist is the highest priority worry on your list in life, then i envy you.


I've been around the mill a bit on this debate so I'm jaded now, but that's basically the whole right/left argument summed up for me. Democrats want to preserve our civil liberties and Republicans want to give them all away. Who needs terrorists, eh?


Well, aside from wanting to stir up a bit of an argument yesterday, i wish it was that simple a line in the sand. I see all front-line mainstream politicians, Republican/Democratic/Conservative/Labour as scrambling to curb civil liberties. Cameron could calculate there would be enough support for 42 day detention in the UK without having to be seen to endorse a crumbling Brown. As much as he pays lip service to being against such a thing, he simply won't commit to reversing such a law if it were in place and he became PM.


Yep, I know what you mean. Apparently that's what he and David Davies fell out over.
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Postby JT » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:58 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:Just to conclude. If you're going to make such stupid posts about things


And yet with all the lengthy posting you have yet to persuasively demonstrate the 'stupidity' of my posts.
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Postby JT » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:00 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote: Democrats want to preserve our civil liberties and Republicans want to give them all away.


I'm glad you're persuaded, Mr. BS.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:20 pm

JT wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Just to conclude. If you're going to make such stupid posts about things


And yet with all the lengthy posting you have yet to persuasively demonstrate the 'stupidity' of my posts.


Not sure where you get that idea from, but i guarantee you that i'm not particularly fussed about trying to persuade you of anything. Are you telling me you're seriously involved here to persuade the rest that your view is correct? I don't think many people are going to jump onto the magic roundabout.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:25 pm

JT wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Democrats want to preserve our civil liberties and Republicans want to give them all away.


I'm glad you're persuaded, Mr. BS.


Your implication in the above reply to Mr BS tells everyone everything they need to know. Next you'll be telling us your favourite numbers are 18 and 88 ;)

Seriously though, you don't think both parties want to give them all away? And, you don't see that as being a bad thing?
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:52 am

Moon-Crane wrote:
JT wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Democrats want to preserve our civil liberties and Republicans want to give them all away.


I'm glad you're persuaded, Mr. BS.


Your implication in the above reply to Mr BS tells everyone everything they need to know. Next you'll be telling us your favourite numbers are 18 and 88 ;)

Seriously though, you don't think both parties want to give them all away? And, you don't see that as being a bad thing?


I don't think Democrats want to give them all away, it'd be political suicide for one thing. Once good thing about living in a democracy is you get to vote the bastards out when they try stripping you of your rights.

I can't believe JT thinks giving up all out hard-fought civil liberties is a good thing, he must be just stirring the pot...
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:55 am

JT wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Just to conclude. If you're going to make such stupid posts about things


And yet with all the lengthy posting you have yet to persuasively demonstrate the 'stupidity' of my posts.


I'd say you're constant French bashing was ignorant rather than stupid.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:43 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:
JT wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Democrats want to preserve our civil liberties and Republicans want to give them all away.


I'm glad you're persuaded, Mr. BS.


Your implication in the above reply to Mr BS tells everyone everything they need to know. Next you'll be telling us your favourite numbers are 18 and 88 ;)

Seriously though, you don't think both parties want to give them all away? And, you don't see that as being a bad thing?


I don't think Democrats want to give them all away, it'd be political suicide for one thing. Once good thing about living in a democracy is you get to vote the bastards out when they try stripping you of your rights.

I can't believe JT thinks giving up all out hard-fought civil liberties is a good thing, he must be just stirring the pot...


I'm certain tongue was well and truly wedged in cheek.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:02 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:I'd say you're constant French bashing was ignorant rather than stupid.


For all i was a bit critical of some sweeping statements about France, I don't think JT's completely off the ball in wanting to keep an eye on their leaders. Leaders of USA, UK and France - Germany, to an extent - are an influential bunch. Hence the constant heckling between them.

I probably feel as cautious of French leading figures in some ways, just for different reasons. The French leaders are some of the most vigourous proponents of the EU after all - overruling the feelings of the population.

However, i'll always question who benefits from proposals of any nation's government, including my own. Rather than believing everything is correct from any party you might support, and the opposition is the root of all evil, you have to treat all politicians with a bit of suspicion as to their motivations, imo.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:11 pm

Wow, i'm reading some fair hammer towards Obama's past links on a few sites. Does anyone think it will have an effect come polling day?

You also got to be worried when someone like the environmental liar and bandwagon jumper, Al Gore, gives his public endorsement, right ;) Or are there enough people who believe him, to make it a positive move?
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:11 pm

Rather than believing everything is correct from any party you might support, and the opposition is the root of all evil, you have to treat all politicians with a bit of suspicion as to their motivations, imo.


You hit the nail on the head there MC. Truth be told, the belief that Democrats and Liberals are the root of all evil is my biggest issue with JT (and those like minded).

While I disagree with many things Republicans and Conservatives do and believe, I don't think they are the cause of all things bad. And I actually side with them on occasion.

Politics are a sticky business and politicians for the most part have ulterior motives for many of the things they do.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:37 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:
Rather than believing everything is correct from any party you might support, and the opposition is the root of all evil, you have to treat all politicians with a bit of suspicion as to their motivations, imo.


You hit the nail on the head there MC. Truth be told, the belief that Democrats and Liberals are the root of all evil is my biggest issue with JT (and those like minded).

While I disagree with many things Republicans and Conservatives do and believe, I don't think they are the cause of all things bad. And I actually side with them on occasion.

Politics are a sticky business and politicians for the most part have ulterior motives for many of the things they do.

They're all as bad as each other. i'm probably consider myself as an anarchist at heart (in its true sense) as i believe the vast majority of people could manage perfectly well, and prosper, with self rule. However, it doesn't quite sit with my view that there needs to be government control over corporate power. Nearly all models seem good in theory, but don't take into account many external factors, and can't just be started in a vacuum.

Politicians, are usually career politicians now, so haven't decided to enter the world of meddling in other people's business because of something they've encountered in other walks of life, whether business, law, etc. That makes me wonder what they want out of life in setting rules and regulations for others. We have 20-something-year-old candidates campaigning to run local authorities and represent areas in Parliament. What can someone like that really offer people? Might be ageist but it's one area where experience should count imo. I just suspect people so young to be gagging to employ some theory they've been taught out of a text book on a politics degree at Uni, to get them up the political ladder.

Not sure how it differs in America? And I'm sure i'm generalising too much, so happy to be shown all the relatively young whizzkids that prove me wrong.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:46 pm

I don't think all politicians are corrupt or just in it for the glory and money but I do believe special interest groups control a large number of them.

I'm not anti government in general. I think people would not do well in an anarchist society. There is too much temptation out there. There needs to be government control in some things.

However, there are many places that I don't want government control. I don't want them in my bedroom. I don't want them controlling who I marry. I don't want them telling me that I can't smoke in a bar or on the street or in my own damn house. I don't want them watching everything I do and everywhere I go.

I don't want them reading my emails or listening to my phone conversations. I'm not a terrorist or a criminal. I'm not planning on overthrowing the government, I'm not "doing anything wrong" and I STILL don't want them doing that shit!

The US has turned into a Nanny State and it's fucking ridiculous.
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Postby JT » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:41 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:
JT wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Democrats want to preserve our civil liberties and Republicans want to give them all away.


I'm glad you're persuaded, Mr. BS.


Your implication in the above reply to Mr BS tells everyone everything they need to know. Next you'll be telling us your favourite numbers are 18 and 88 ;)

Seriously though, you don't think both parties want to give them all away? And, you don't see that as being a bad thing?


Believe it or not, I didn't use 'Mr. BS' to mean 'Mr. Bull _ _ _ _'. Sorry Blue Sky if that was what was read.
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Postby JT » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:49 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:
JT wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Just to conclude. If you're going to make such stupid posts about things


And yet with all the lengthy posting you have yet to persuasively demonstrate the 'stupidity' of my posts.


Not sure where you get that idea from, but i guarantee you that i'm not particularly fussed about trying to persuade you of anything. Are you telling me you're seriously involved here to persuade the rest that your view is correct? I don't think many people are going to jump onto the magic roundabout.


Well, when on one magic roundabout, why jump on to another one.

Yea, right, I'm involved here to change the world. I picked the Frasier fan forum as the logical starting point. Once I have you all persuaded I can then move on to the 'Friends' forums, having conquered cyber worlds A - E.
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Postby JT » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:52 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
JT wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Just to conclude. If you're going to make such stupid posts about things


And yet with all the lengthy posting you have yet to persuasively demonstrate the 'stupidity' of my posts.


I'd say you're constant French bashing was ignorant rather than stupid.


Why ignorant? What am I ignorant of? You're telling me that America antagonism is not a pattern of the French elite? Are you aware that it is the Elites I am bashing, not regular French folks?
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Postby JT » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:00 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote: Truth be told, the belief that Democrats and Liberals are the root of all evil is my biggest issue with JT (and those like minded).


To be precise, I think modern liberalism is our primary threat, not 'the root of all evil'. There probably is a bit more than a subtle difference. In a nutshell, which by the way is not intended as a smear of my California state assembly or any thing like it, modern liberalism erodes our sense of identity, confidence and the ability to deal realistically and effectively with external threats.
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Postby JT » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:14 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:They're all as bad as each other. i'm probably consider myself as an anarchist at heart (in its true sense) as i believe the vast majority of people could manage perfectly well, and prosper, with self rule. However, it doesn't quite sit with my view that there needs to be government control over corporate power. Nearly all models seem good in theory, but don't take into account many external factors, and can't just be started in a vacuum.


Oh by the way, happy 4th of July - American Independence day. It sounds like maybe you could be pigeon-holed as a Libertarian. Libertarians are in some ways further right than I am. For example, I do think there needs to be some government control over corporate power. It's just that I think the Liberals go way to far - they too often seem to be in opposition to the economic institution itself. Libertarians and Republicans/Conservatives/Right-wingers are political allies here in the States. But to many right-wingers, Libertarianism strikes us as being too unrealisitic - we sometimes equate their governmental philosophy with that of our pre-constitutional Articles of Confederation. Too weak to properly cohere a nation. And although I believe in the individual, I don't think we could prosper with self rule.

One thing I do like about Libertarians views is that although they believe that individuals should have great freedom in their choices of behaviour (drugs, etc.), they also believe, as do other right-wingers, that if as a consequence of these choices they become non-competitive in society, they should not look to government to bale them out, or 'set things right'.

Moon-Crane wrote:Politicians, are usually career politicians now, so haven't decided to enter the world of meddling in other people's business because of something they've encountered in other walks of life, whether business, law, etc. That makes me wonder what they want out of life in setting rules and regulations for others. We have 20-something-year-old candidates campaigning to run local authorities and represent areas in Parliament. What can someone like that really offer people? Might be ageist but it's one area where experience should count imo. I just suspect people so young to be gagging to employ some theory they've been taught out of a text book on a politics degree at Uni, to get them up the political ladder.

Not sure how it differs in America? And I'm sure i'm generalising too much, so happy to be shown all the relatively young whizzkids that prove me wrong.


I don't like politicians either - left, right, or faux-middle. They are inherently self-centered.
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Postby JT » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:20 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:I don't want them reading my emails or listening to my phone conversations. I'm not a terrorist or a criminal. I'm not planning on overthrowing the government, I'm not "doing anything wrong" and I STILL don't want them doing that shit! .


O.K I agree. But they are not doing that shit. I know by listening to the main stream media it seems that way. You are the 'Swedish nun' cliche. They profile a bit more effectively than that.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:26 pm

Good to see you, JT... been a short while. Hope you're having fun on Independence Day (or ID4 as they say in certain Hollywood marketing offices :roll: :) )
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Postby Moon-Crane » Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:22 pm

JT wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:They're all as bad as each other. i'm probably consider myself as an anarchist at heart (in its true sense) as i believe the vast majority of people could manage perfectly well, and prosper, with self rule. However, it doesn't quite sit with my view that there needs to be government control over corporate power. Nearly all models seem good in theory, but don't take into account many external factors, and can't just be started in a vacuum.


Oh by the way, happy 4th of July - American Independence day. It sounds like maybe you could be pigeon-holed as a Libertarian. Libertarians are in some ways further right than I am. For example, I do think there needs to be some government control over corporate power. It's just that I think the Liberals go way to far - they too often seem to be in opposition to the economic institution itself. Libertarians and Republicans/Conservatives/Right-wingers are political allies here in the States. But to many right-wingers, Libertarianism strikes us as being too unrealisitic - we sometimes equate their governmental philosophy with that of our pre-constitutional Articles of Confederation. Too weak to properly cohere a nation. And although I believe in the individual, I don't think we could prosper with self rule.

Fair points. I think there are flaws in the Libertarian area - but i do like their philosophy in general. I posted a link somewhere back to the guys in the running for leading the Libertarian Party, but i don't really know much of their backgrounds in any great depth.

I don't really believe we could live by pure self rule - i just think it's a nice aim for individuals to live their personal lives by as best they can, i suppose. We're corrupted by a lot of historical baggage (and maybe even natural instinct) for it ever to be a viable reality to run society.

The fact there is a Libertarian party at all, no matter how minor, is another thing for America to be proud of. I can't point to anything similar in the UK. The small parties are generally more socialist, apart from the nationalists, at least, but i don't think any run on any of the clearly laid out Libertarian policies i see Stateside.

I guess the 'New Labour' of the 90s struck a cord because they seemed to embrace various business/economic models (said to be more right-wing than the Conservatives at the time) while maintaining a feeling of being for the 'every day people' (hey, i said it was the 90s - prospering times :D ) - but hardly Libertarian by a long shot - and now proving to be just as meddling if not more so than they ever were.

One thing I do like about Libertarians views is that although they believe that individuals should have great freedom in their choices of behaviour (drugs, etc.), they also believe, as do other right-wingers, that if as a consequence of these choices they become non-competitive in society, they should not look to government to bale them out, or 'set things right'.

Well i can't argue with that. There are definitely too many laws in the UK, more concerned about meddling in personal lifestyle choices than looking at the bigger picture. I see little need for deciding what two consenting people can do with each other, or for possession of anything to be illegal, for example. I'm sure the intent/reason of having something in your possession can be circled to a proper crime, if necessary. So, if you want to reduce drug crime - i'd make all drugs legal, and concentrate on any criminal consequences that sometimes occur when people don't handle the drugs - like violence, theft, etc - they're crimes anyway. The majority of currently criminalised people would be no bother - while the current dicks will still be picked up for the antisocial things they do.

Anyway, straying off track :D Keep popping back, JT.
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Postby Slayer13 » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:47 am

I forget what I voted, but the more I think about it, America is definatley not the greatest. I beleive there was a point in time when we were the most technologically advanced, but every country hs progressed so well. In the USA, there are a lot commercial business and such, like McDonalds every ten minutes away from a house, and that is exagerating on a tad.

Now, there are some sights to see, but I see some pictures you all post in 'Snapshots of your life' and pine to go there. I mean yes, here there are: The Statue of Liberty, Grand Canyon and The Rocky Mountains, but I think there is so much more, especially in Europe. I would say for sight seeing, that USA can be far down the list, or maybe its the fact that I have seen these sights more than once and am tired of them.

Economy varries everywhere, which I know is important for living conditions. But I would not mind switching to another type of currency, and think I could adapt. Weather is another factor for me, like in some parts of Ireland where I was this summer, were beautiful all the time. But in Chicago, we had rain, heat (not so bad this summer...so far), a rough winter.

But all in all I would love to move, maybe even in a heartbeat, the only rough thing is leaving your family. But I have a lot reason to leave, and could definatley see myself, settling down in the city of Parm, Italy.

All in all, my answer is an underlined NO, American is not the greatest nation.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:15 pm

Anyone got any comments on the passing of HR6304 which grants even more monitoring powers introduced by the FISA 'wiretapping' bill, as well as retrospective legislation to grant immunity from prosecution for anyone involved in co-operating with the government over all the surveillance carried out before the practices were exposed to the public.

Clips of dissenting senators over the vote

Congress vote by Senator, (with link to the Bill if anyone has insomnia)

NY Times article.
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:27 am

Moon-Crane wrote:Anyone got any comments on the passing of HR6304 which grants even more monitoring powers introduced by the FISA 'wiretapping' bill, as well as retrospective legislation to grant immunity from prosecution for anyone involved in co-operating with the government over all the surveillance carried out before the practices were exposed to the public.

Clips of dissenting senators over the vote

Congress vote by Senator, (with link to the Bill if anyone has insomnia)

NY Times article.


Sorry, missed this before. Worrying stuff. I don't like this road we're on...
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:37 am

Clear difference between McCain and Obama over Iraq

I think McCain's misguided here. I'm sure much of the violence is caused purely by America's presence there. If US troops pulled out gradually I'm sure we'd see a gradual decline in violence.
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