Frasier Online

A second poll from yours truly which on the face of it may look like a silly bit of Yank-bashing but I do think there's a debate to be had here. On the "European" thread JT said...

JT wrote:I do respect Europe (including the UK) in many ways, and am proud of my Irish/Scottish heritage. The US and Western Europe are really the same thing to a large extent. But all in all I really think I was very lucky to have been born in the 20th century in what I subjectively think (and could effectively argue objectively I think) is the greatest nation in the history of the planet.

...and I wondered, does anyone else agree with this? I think an argument can certainly be made for the last 200 years or so but in the 'history of the planet'?

I'm currently looking out of my window at work at York Minster (it looks great lit up at night), a building upon which construction finished 20 years before Columbus set sail for the New World. I suppose what I'm saying is that an awful lot of history took place before America became anything like a powerful nation. During the 19th century the British Empire covered a quarter of the globe; the Roman Empire lasted centuries and (bloodshed aside ) brought many developments to parts of the world that previously had none. I'm sure there are many more examples of nations/civilisations that can claim to be the 'greatest in history'.

So there we go. Putting bias to one side does anyone agree with JT's statement that America is the greatest nation in the history of the planet?

I voted 'no' by the way.

Sorry, but my pride made me vote yes! For me personally, it is the greatest nation in the history of the planet!

I do realize that in comparison to most of the rest of the world, the US is but a baby country. And certainly other nations have done some great things. But alas, none is better in my eyes.

This is the second time in less than a week that I've agreed with JT on something. I'm starting to scare myself!

I have to fix this................ahhh, I can fix it with one simple slogan........

HILLARY 2008!

CatNamedRudy wrote:Sorry, but my pride made me vote yes! For me personally, it is the greatest nation in the history of the planet!

I do realize that in comparison to most of the rest of the world, the US is but a baby country. And certainly other nations have done some great things. But alas, none is better in my eyes.

This is the second time in less than a week that I've agreed with JT on something. I'm starting to scare myself!

I have to fix this................ahhh, I can fix it with one simple slogan........

HILLARY 2008!

Me too!

I think that's enough now!

He just needs to pop in here and talk about how great Ann Coulter is and the world will all be right again!

I said no. I mean, I'm from here, and I am really glad that I live in America, but we have our flaws, just like any other place. Plus, our health care plan stinks.

Peronally I don't like Hillary, I like Barack Obama, and Rudy Giuliana.

Difficult to say in the history of the planet as we'll never have any personal experience of the various ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Roman, Oriental, yadda yadda, civilisations to compare to; and it depends what you look for in a society/community.

This could be a minefield. Some will be accused of either jingoism or US bashing, when most points will be in the area between.

I guess there's no real way to answer here, but to shift it slightly i like JT's thinking regarding the close association of America/Western Europe and how they could essentially be seen as entwined. We're culturally the same mindset, obviously. If you put the two together, the influence on the 'modern' world is mind-boggling.

On the US election side of things, mentioned here, i'm wary of Rudy Giuliani. I'm not sure what he really did - apart from implement other peoples' policies and take the credit for the success. i'm sure that's too simplistic, so if someone could expand, maybe on another thread about the candidates, i'd appreciate it.

I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton either.

What a shock 'coincidence' about Obama and Cheney being related, too Except it won't be much of a surprise to any serious political researchers. When you see the genealogy of American presidents, there's a lot you can relate to essentially the same bloodline. Seemed funny for the Cheney family to come out with the 'news' when they did - has Obama been doing well lately? Was it a way of trying to drag him down?

Beer Necessity wrote: I think an argument can certainly be made for the last 200 years or so but in the 'history of the planet'?

True, but as I said in many fundamental ways Western Europe, the US, and some other peripheral countries (Aus., Can, SoAfrica, etc.) - i.e the 'West', share the same culture. As I like to say, Europe experienced the Renaissance, spawning an America that provided fuel that helped ignite the greatest advances in human history. BN, maybe because England spawned the greatest country in human history it has a claim to the title. When I compare the US with the British Empire, or the Roman Empire, or any other, certain things come to mind. First, despite what the lefty wackos say, the US is probably the first non-empire Superpower in the history of the world. We exercise hegemonic influence, but we are not an 'empire'. There is a difference and its not a matter of mere nuance. If we wanted to be, we could use our military to really become an empire - taking over resources and subjugating people - simply by killing lots and lots of people like other empires did. Second, we are what I would consider to be the best example of the ideals of Classical Liberalism (again with European roots)- with our constitution, Bill of Rights and other governmental and cultural institutions.

Beer Necessity wrote:I suppose what I'm saying is that an awful lot of history took place before America became anything like a powerful nation. During the 19th century the British Empire covered a quarter of the globe; the Roman Empire lasted centuries and (bloodshed aside ) brought many developments to parts of the world that previously had none. I'm sure there are many more examples of nations/civilisations that can claim to be the 'greatest in history'.

Mostly answered above, but we could cover a quarter of the globe if we wanted to. Our influence actually covers the entire globe. But its really what the Euro elites like to call 'soft power'. Again despite what the liberal wackjobs say. America in a very real sense is both the Roman and British empires plus.....
I guess one can look at this question a number of different ways - absolute versus relative measures, etc. Maybe one could make the argument for America simply because it is the latest and therefor the most powerful in absolute terms.

CatNamedRudy wrote:Sorry, but my pride made me vote yes! For me personally, it is the greatest nation in the history of the planet!

I do realize that in comparison to most of the rest of the world, the US is but a baby country. And certainly other nations have done some great things. But alas, none is better in my eyes.

This is the second time in less than a week that I've agreed with JT on something. I'm starting to scare myself!

I have to fix this................ahhh, I can fix it with one simple slogan........

HILLARY 2008!

Pride did not make me vote yes. Empirical evidence simply leads me to my conclusions. I'm proud of America's greatness, but will criticize appropriately when necessary.

And, btw, the most frightening phrase in the English language is:

Hillary Clinton, Commander in Chief

If you think the attacks against Bush were severe, just wait until and if Hillary wins. It will be bad for the country. We will attack and attack and attack. She is the worst example of a Euro elite socialist in the US. And she' is a pathological liar to boot. Even the liberal journalist Carl Bernstein, who researched her life for his biography of her, said a central aspect of her character is that "she has trouble telling the truth".

JT wrote:I guess one can look at this question a number of different ways - absolute versus relative measures, etc. [b]Maybe one could make the argument for America simply because it is the latest and therefor the most powerful in absolute terms.

That would be the strongest argument in my eyes, simply because no matter how great, and advanced-for-their-time, the ancient civilisations were it can't be as safe (in spite of what some people might try to say), healthy, and comfortable, for want of a better word, as any Western nation nowadays. The latest is nearly always best. (Aviation being the exception currently with the removal of Concorde - but the upcoming Orbiting Shuttle planes will wipe that out - anyway, that's off on a tangent).

JT wrote:

CatNamedRudy wrote:Sorry, but my pride made me vote yes! For me personally, it is the greatest nation in the history of the planet!

I do realize that in comparison to most of the rest of the world, the US is but a baby country. And certainly other nations have done some great things. But alas, none is better in my eyes.

This is the second time in less than a week that I've agreed with JT on something. I'm starting to scare myself!

I have to fix this................ahhh, I can fix it with one simple slogan........

HILLARY 2008!

Pride did not make me vote yes. Empirical evidence simply leads me to my conclusions. I'm proud of America's greatness, but will criticize appropriately when necessary.

And, btw, the most frightening phrase in the English language is:

Hillary Clinton, Commander in Chief

If you think the attacks against Bush were severe, just wait until and if Hillary wins. It will be bad for the country. We will attack and attack and attack. She is the worst example of a Euro elite socialist in the US. And she' is a pathological liar to boot. Even the liberal journalist Carl Bernstein, who researched her life for his biography of her, said a central aspect of her character is that "she has trouble telling the truth".

Yayyy! Things are back in sync with the world!

JT bashed Hillary!

How ANYONE who supports Bush has the balls to call anyone else a liar is beyond me. But hey, that is in part EXACTLY why America IS the greatest country in the history of the planet! We can disagree and argue and bitch about our govt. all day long and we won't get hung or beheaded for it!

God, why do these questions pop up? Never mind, I'll wait a while until everyone's sleeping

My personal pride aside, I will give another reason for my feelings. America, by most standards is a very young country. In slightly over 230 years, the US has risen from a colony revolting against what they felt was tyranical King to one of the most powerful countries in the world. That's quite a feat in that short amount of time if you ask me! (although some might say we are once again being ruled by a tyranical King but I digress.......)

Certainly America has her problems but who doesn't?


I also do not believe for one second that JT's pride had NOTHING to do with his feelings on the subject. If he weren't American, he wouldn't be making statements saying that America is the greatest country in the history of the planet! That's, at least in part, American pride talking!

I would say that the answer to the poll question depends on what measures you are using. If you pick and choose the criteria, it's possible to come up with whatever answer you choose!

I don't think America is 'the greatest nation in the history of the planet, but then again I don't think Britain could claim that title either! I don't think it's possible to come up with a conclusive answer, is it?

Even if the 'history of the planet' bit wasn't tacked on the end, I still wouldn't answer 'yes'. I can't see how any one nation could lay claim to being the 'greatest nation at present'. America is a Superpower, obviously, but 'greatest' doesn't necessarily equate to 'power'. Power can be used for good and bad - surely every nation in the world has some atrocities buried in its history? The USA has civil war, slavery and the treatment of native Americans as some examples of that. Britain has Empire (i.e. stealing countries!!), slavery and war in it's story too.

Britain's the greatest nation, but that's just my old patriotism speaking.

I'm scared I voted yes.

haha

as Denny Crane said "Only America has the right to invade countries, we're God's country"

Moon-Crane wrote:

JT wrote:I guess one can look at this question a number of different ways - absolute versus relative measures, etc. Maybe one could make the argument for America simply because it is the latest and therefor the most powerful in absolute terms.

That would be the strongest argument in my eyes, simply because no matter how great, and advanced-for-their-time, the ancient civilisations were it can't be as safe (in spite of what some people might try to say), healthy, and comfortable, for want of a better word, as any Western nation nowadays. The latest is nearly always best. (Aviation being the exception currently with the removal of Concorde - but the upcoming Orbiting Shuttle planes will wipe that out - anyway, that's off on a tangent).

I'm not sure I buy that argument. By that logic the last team to win the English Premiership was the greatest in the history of the planet! (and I obviously couldn’t agree with that! ). Great civilisations are similar to great football teams IMO. They have their time in the sun, a point in history when they're utterly dominant and then fade away for a variety of reasons. If Graeme Souness had been Caesar during the Julio-Claudian dynasty I'm sure it wouldn't have lasted quite as long! I'm being flippant of course but arguing America is the greatest nation in the history of the planet because they're the most powerful nation now is a mistake (again, IMHO).

Dorset Girl wrote:Britain has Empire (i.e. stealing countries!!)

Cue Mr Izzard, had to be done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

This took ages to buffer or whatever on mine, but very funny and worth the wait

JT wrote: BN, maybe because England spawned the greatest country in human history it has a claim to the title.

JT wrote:When I compare the US with the British Empire, or the Roman Empire, or any other, certain things come to mind. First, despite what the lefty wackos say, the US is probably the first non-empire Superpower in the history of the world. We exercise hegemonic influence, but we are not an 'empire'. There is a difference and its not a matter of mere nuance. If we wanted to be, we could use our military to really become an empire - taking over resources and subjugating people - simply by killing lots and lots of people like other empires did.

Many residents of the Middle East would no doubt disagree with that. The US (and Britain, but let's face it, mainly the US) have in essence supplanted the hostile Iraqi dictatorship and replaced it using military force with a puppet government. Is that so much different to the way Britain gained control of India, for example? Or how Rome gained control over the whole of Western Europe?

we could cover a quarter of the globe if we wanted to.

Nuclear counter-strike?

Our influence actually covers the entire globe.

No disagreement there. The US provides overseas aid packages for poorer countries to the tune of billions - as long as they tow the line. THIS is but one example I pulled from the archives of the US offering Turkey $4 billion in 'aid' so long as they can use Turkey's military bases just prior to the invasion of Iraq.

Beer Necessity wrote:

Moon-Crane wrote:

JT wrote:I guess one can look at this question a number of different ways - absolute versus relative measures, etc. Maybe one could make the argument for America simply because it is the latest and therefor the most powerful in absolute terms.

That would be the strongest argument in my eyes, simply because no matter how great, and advanced-for-their-time, the ancient civilisations were it can't be as safe (in spite of what some people might try to say), healthy, and comfortable, for want of a better word, as any Western nation nowadays. The latest is nearly always best. (Aviation being the exception currently with the removal of Concorde - but the upcoming Orbiting Shuttle planes will wipe that out - anyway, that's off on a tangent).

I'm not sure I buy that argument. By that logic the last team to win the English Premiership was the greatest in the history of the planet! (and I obviously couldn’t agree with that! ). Great civilisations are similar to great football teams IMO. They have their time in the sun, a point in history when they're utterly dominant and then fade away for a variety of reasons. If Graeme Souness had been Caesar during the Julio-Claudian dynasty I'm sure it wouldn't have lasted quite as long! I'm being flippant of course but arguing America is the greatest nation in the history of the planet because they're the most powerful nation now is a mistake (again, IMHO).

Well, I don't think power has a whole lot to do with "greatness". My point in mentioning America becoming powerful had to do more with the tenacity and drive of our nation to enable it to become so powerful in such a short amount of time. Given what we started with, I think that says an awful lot about us.

Having said that, one also has to look at WHO is it was that built America into what it is today! Had it not been for Europeans, America wouldn't be! At least not in the same state it's in. Our very core was founded by people of European descent and primarily the English!

CatNamedRudy wrote:Well, I don't think power has a whole lot to do with "greatness". My point in mentioning America becoming powerful had to do more with the tenacity and drive of our nation to enable it to become so powerful in such a short amount of time. Given what we started with, I think that says an awful lot about us.

Having said that, one also has to look at WHO is it was that built America into what it is today! Had it not been for Europeans, America wouldn't be! At least not in the same state it's in. Our very core was founded by people of European descent and primarily the English!

Well said!

I did mention in my opening post that the argument for the US being the greatest nation of the last 200 years is pretty compelling, it was just JT's 'history of the planet' comment that got me thinking, especially as JT knows his history. I was interested in his arguments, and those of any person who agrees with him obviously!

It's a bit of a bugbear for me that the Western world as a whole assumes its systems of government, etc., are 'the best' and tries to impose this method of development onto Developing countries.

I'd say Britain, the USA and a whole host of other 'Economically Developed' countries are guilty of actually making some things worse for a lot of African and Latin American countries, not least through debt restructuring in the 90s, which involved making countries conform to certain regulations and imposing our own systems on them, in exchange for debt repayment relief.

Not sure that makes much sense, but I can't think of how to word it differently...

ouroboros wrote:

Dorset Girl wrote:Britain has Empire (i.e. stealing countries!!)

Cue Mr Izzard, had to be done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

This took ages to buffer or whatever on mine, but very funny and worth the wait

Another good clip would be the whole "The US Government lied to the native Americans for many years..." bit!

I will admit that I am not a big fan of Democracy through Force!

However, I also think that the Western world has done some really great things in regards to some of the 3rd world countries.

One cannot blame the US or other countries in the western world for all the ills of the world.