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Should the show have ended after Season 7?

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Should Frasier have bowed out after Season 7?

Yes
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No
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Total votes : 31

Should the show have ended after Season 7?

Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:40 pm

Quick question - in retrospect, do you think Frasier should have finished after Something Borrowed, Someone Blue, whilst it was still good?

I know S11 was a return to form - and we'd never have had such classics as 'Fathers and Sons', 'The Doctor is Out', 'High Holidays', 'Caught in the Act' and 'Boo', but personally I think Frasier did go on too long. It ruined the character's of Daphne and Niles (the former should DEFINITELY have gone after SBSB, if nothing else) and the laughs, for the most part, weren't really there - at least, not to the same level of consistentcy as earlier years.

So, discuss...
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Postby Paul B » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:43 pm

If it had just been S1-S7 & S11, then it would have been one of the most consistent shows I've had the pleasure to watch - 8 seasons of pure bliss. I agree that Daphne and Niles' characters both declined, but that could've been fixed simply with better show-runners. I could go without S8-S10 if I had to.
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:45 pm

Paul B wrote:If it had just been S1-S7 & S11, then it would have been one of the most consistent shows I've had the pleasure to watch - 8 seasons of pure bliss. I agree that Daphne and Niles' characters both declined, but that could've been fixed simply with better show-runners. I could go without S8-S10 if I had to.


But Joe Keenan and Christopher Lloyd came back for the final season, and they didn't really made Niles and Daphne any more interesting as characters.

S8-10 have one classic episode - not a very good ratio really, is it?
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Postby Paul B » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:46 pm

Cake for Brains wrote:
Paul B wrote:If it had just been S1-S7 & S11, then it would have been one of the most consistent shows I've had the pleasure to watch - 8 seasons of pure bliss. I agree that Daphne and Niles' characters both declined, but that could've been fixed simply with better show-runners. I could go without S8-S10 if I had to.


But Joe Keenan and Christopher Lloyd came back for the final season, and they didn't really made Niles and Daphne any more interesting as characters.

They were still an improvement over their S8-S10 personas, but really, could you handle them any better after the trainwreck those show-runners turned them into?
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:48 pm

They were still an improvement over their S8-S10 personas, but really, could you handle them any better after the trainwreck those show-runners turned them into?


I'd have killed off Daphne for a start. I'd be a ruthless showrunner. :twisted:

People say that S8-10 of Frasier is still good in comparison to other TV show. It's not - a lot of it is just plain bad. I've had the S9 DVD for nearly six months now, and still only watched 2 episodes from it.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:31 pm

Absolutely not. And I absolutely, completely 100% disagree with Cakey!

There ARE good episodes in 8,9 and 10. In fact I think 9 has a far worse reputation than it deserves!

Yes, Niles and Daphne's relationship should have and could have been written much better but they do have a few good moments. And the Dish Ran Away With the Spoon is a great episode as is Daphne Returns. Had the writer's gone with that part of their relationship, the getting to know you stuff, it would have been much more tolerable.

In any event, yes, there are three less than stellar seasons but I enjoy them still and I definitely don't think the show should have ended at S7.
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:41 pm

Absolutely not. And I absolutely, completely 100% disagree with Cakey!


That's a first! :lol:

There ARE good episodes in 8,9 and 10. In fact I think 9 has a far worse reputation than it deserves!


9 is the strongest of the O'Shannon years, probably, but that's not saying much. 'Bia-Z-Boy', 'The Proposal', 'Moons Over Seattle' and ten minutes from 'Don Juan in Hell' are the only highlights.

Yes, Niles and Daphne's relationship should have and could have been written much better but they do have a few good moments. And the Dish Ran Away With the Spoon is a great episode as is Daphne Returns. Had the writer's gone with that part of their relationship, the getting to know you stuff, it would have been much more tolerable.


The good points of their relationship was completely lost on me, I'm afraid. I felt sorry for Niles - he basically married Maris all over again. Daphne became a complete witch.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:51 pm

Don Juan in Hell is one of my all time top episodes. Falls in the Top 10 for sure. And for me, it's most of the episode although the first part is a bit slower than the second.

The "good" part of Niles and Daphne's relationship was the "getting to know you" stuff. Unfortunately, there was only a glimpse of that. It was handled really well in Daphne Returns and then it was just..........gone!

Daphne was no Maris though. Mel was Maris!
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:56 pm

The "good" part of Niles and Daphne's relationship was the "getting to know you" stuff. Unfortunately, there was only a glimpse of that. It was handled really well in Daphne Returns and then it was just..........gone!


Yeah, the stuff in 'Daphne Returns' is really good - although not good enough to make up for the other 95 episodes of their relationship that weren't.

Daphne was no Maris though. Mel was Maris!


Call me insane, but I'd much rather Niles had stayed married to Mel and Jane Leeves had left the show. You may throw things at me now.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:59 pm

Cake for Brains wrote:
The "good" part of Niles and Daphne's relationship was the "getting to know you" stuff. Unfortunately, there was only a glimpse of that. It was handled really well in Daphne Returns and then it was just..........gone!


Yeah, the stuff in 'Daphne Returns' is really good - although not good enough to make up for the other 95 episodes of their relationship that weren't.

Daphne was no Maris though. Mel was Maris!


Call me insane, but I'd much rather Niles had stayed married to Mel and Jane Leeves had left the show. You may throw things at me now.



>>>>>hurls objects Cakey's way>>>>>>>>

I hated the way Mel treated Niles from the very start. Mel had ONE shining moment in their whole relationship and that was when she was talking about how much she loved Niles.
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:01 pm

>>>>>hurls objects Cakey's way>>>>>>>>


*Cakey successfully dodges*

I hated the way Mel treated Niles from the very start. Mel had ONE shining moment in their whole relationship and that was when she was talking about how much she loved Niles.


Mel was a good character. I wish she'd stuck around a bit longer.
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Postby Agides » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:02 pm

I'm not sure that 'Frasier' should have ended immediately after Season 7 (I wouldn't have had my absolute favourite episode 'High Holidays' if it had!), but most of the magic of 'Frasier' was gone for me after Niles' unrequited love of Daphne became requited.
The 'will they?/won't they?' slow-burn up to that point and the fantastic comedy it produced is some of the best in tv history imho, and with the exception of the handful of episodes mentioned above, the rest were distinctly average by comparison.
Paul B's comment about S1-7 plus S11 is spot-on - if it had stayed at those seasons, it would have been as near to perfect tv as you can get!
On this basis, I voted 'yes'.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:12 pm

Cake for Brains wrote:
>>>>>hurls objects Cakey's way>>>>>>>>


*Cakey successfully dodges*

I hated the way Mel treated Niles from the very start. Mel had ONE shining moment in their whole relationship and that was when she was talking about how much she loved Niles.


Mel was a good character. I wish she'd stuck around a bit longer.


Mel is probably the character that I hated more than any other. Didn't like her from the get go and never got to like her. She was a manipulating, controlling bitch. I fail to understand how you can see that in Daphne and not in Mel.
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:19 pm

Mel is probably the character that I hated more than any other. Didn't like her from the get go and never got to like her. She was a manipulating, controlling bitch. I fail to understand how you can see that in Daphne and not in Mel.


I can see that in Mel - but it somehow worked. She had good chemistry with DHP. It's a different matter with Daphne - because she suddenly went from being this lovely, warm, eccentric to a cold, unsympathetic, annoying nag.
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Postby Agides » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:25 pm

Cake for Brains wrote:I can see that in Mel - but it somehow worked. She had good chemistry with DHP. It's a different matter with Daphne - because she suddenly went from being this lovely, warm, eccentric to a cold, unsympathetic, annoying nag.


Yes - how did that happen? When you look at some of the last episodes against the really early ones, it's like two different characters.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:27 pm

Cake for Brains wrote:
Mel is probably the character that I hated more than any other. Didn't like her from the get go and never got to like her. She was a manipulating, controlling bitch. I fail to understand how you can see that in Daphne and not in Mel.


I can see that in Mel - but it somehow worked. She had good chemistry with DHP. It's a different matter with Daphne - because she suddenly went from being this lovely, warm, eccentric to a cold, unsympathetic, annoying nag.


Oh.........so it was ok for Mel to be a controlling bitch because she was like that from the start? It was ok for her to be a nasty human being to Frasier and Daphne (which she was) because she was always like that?

On that logic then Frasier should have married Julia!

I won't disagree that Daphne became almost intolerable (for me, she wasn't completely intolerable but she was close) after she and Niles got together and there was a major element lost like Agides mentioned.

I would have preferred Niles and Daphne stay apart until such time as the show ended or that they actually had them be a real dating couple. Maybe break up a couple of times. Fight, get jealous.........all the stuff that normal couples go through but still, it wasn't enough for me to think the show should have been called quits after SBSB.
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Postby Agides » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:50 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:I would have preferred Niles and Daphne stay apart until such time as the show ended or that they actually had them be a real dating couple. Maybe break up a couple of times. Fight, get jealous.........all the stuff that normal couples go through but still, it wasn't enough for me to think the show should have been called quits after SBSB.


Actually, Cat, those could have made for some funny episodes - missing each other by one being single while the other was dating someone else, thinking they knew one another's like/dislikes well and finding out they didn't. Perhaps Charlotte could have been introduced a bit earlier and they could have "met" through her dating agency or something similar?
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:53 pm

Oh.........so it was ok for Mel to be a controlling bitch because she was like that from the start? It was ok for her to be a nasty human being to Frasier and Daphne (which she was) because she was always like that?


In general terms, no, but in terms of characterisation and what it added to the show, yes! Mel being mean to Niles was a very interesting story arc, because it had the audience even more determined to see N&D together, and was basically a way of turning up the tension. Daphne, on the other hand, was just boring and pointless from S8 onwards.

On that logic then Frasier should have married Julia!


But that's different. Niles actually married Mel - and I don't see what difference it would have made to the show if he'd carried on being married to her, because his character certainly couldn't have gotten any worse.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:11 pm

Cake for Brains wrote:
Oh.........so it was ok for Mel to be a controlling bitch because she was like that from the start? It was ok for her to be a nasty human being to Frasier and Daphne (which she was) because she was always like that?


In general terms, no, but in terms of characterisation and what it added to the show, yes! Mel being mean to Niles was a very interesting story arc, because it had the audience even more determined to see N&D together, and was basically a way of turning up the tension. Daphne, on the other hand, was just boring and pointless from S8 onwards.

On that logic then Frasier should have married Julia!


But that's different. Niles actually married Mel - and I don't see what difference it would have made to the show if he'd carried on being married to her, because his character certainly couldn't have gotten any worse.


That's just it though Cakey! How much longer could that have been carried on? I think it would have gotten old fast! How many seasons could you have had Niles married to Mel and still pining over Daphne?

Mel was a means to an end in the Niles/Daphne story arc just like Donny was. At least though where Donny was concerned, he was a nice and decent person and treated Daphne well. Thus, leaving Donny should have been a much bigger dilemma for Daphne than leaving Mel was for Niles. And I think it was. Daphne struggled with that whereas Niles was ready to throw Mel off the balcony at the hotel in order to have Daphne.


Back on track here though...........How about we compile a list of S8 episodes out of the "best" of 8, 9 and 10. Then the series would have run for 9 seasons.
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Postby ouroboros » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:21 pm

I'm going with no because I just don't think you could end it on SBSB viewers would be anxious to see Niles and Daphne together. Yes ok they right royally screwed it up but at least we got to see it and go 'ah well'. In my opinions that's better than wondering what might have been.

Plus I've seen most of 11 and really enjoy it and yeah we wouldn't have had High Holidays or Goodnight Seattle, which was a much better end to Frasier than SBSB because it entailed all of the characters and put a beautiful close on Martin and Frasier's relationship. Cos Frasier isn't all about Niles and Daphne.

I can't attest to the hideousness of all of 8-10 because I haven't seen all of them but I have seen enough to be like 'oh good god!'.

So I'd simply pick maybe 9 seasons. 1 through 7, then a really good season with some focus on Niles and Daphne getting to know each other and different types of humour/sexual tension and then season 11.
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Postby Cake for Brains » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:21 pm

Fair points about the Mel/Niles storyline getting old quickly - but I still find a new dynamic/relationship for the show would have given the show a boost, and would still have been vastly preferrable to the childish, sloppy relationship of N&D.

Anyhoo, 24 episodes that I like from S8-10. That's a tough one...

And the Dish Ran Away with the Spoon
Taking Liberties
Hooping Cranes
The Show Must Go Off
Daphne Returns
A Passing Fancy
Don Juan in Hell (2)
Bia-Z-Boy
The Proposal
Wheels of Fortune
Deathtrap
Moons Over Seattle
Star Mitzvah
Bristle While You Work
Daphne Does Dinner
Fraternal Schwinns
Roe to Perdition
Fathers and Sons

Only 18 episodes that I like, sadly.
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Postby ouroboros » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:22 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:Back on track here though...........How about we compile a list of S8 episodes out of the "best" of 8, 9 and 10. Then the series would have run for 9 seasons.


LOL! I swear I didn't read that first :)
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:48 pm

Ok, my 24 episodes would be:

1. And the Dish Ran Away With the Spoon
2. Taking Liberties
3. Sliding Frasiers
4. Hungry Heart
5. Daphne Returns
6. Semi-Decent Proposal/A Passing Fancy
7. Don Juan in Hell I
8. Don Juan in Hell II
9. Room Full of Heroes
10. Bla-Z-Boy
11. Mother Load Part I
12. Mother Load Part II
13. The Proposal
14. Three Blind Dates
15. The Guilt Trippers
16. Moons Over Seattle
17. The Ring Cycle
18. Rooms With a View
19. Lilith Needs a Favor
20. Daphne Does Dinner
21. Kenny on the Couch
22. Roe to Perdition
23. Fathers and Sons
24. Analyzed Kiss


I could also put in The Bad Son or Cranes Go Caribbean and knock out Analyzed Kiss.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:18 pm

My answer to the poll question is no - because then we would have less Frasier to talk about and watch! :) Personally, even my least favourite episode - 'The Show Must Go Off' - is watchable, there are none that I dislike so much that I wonder why they bothered!

Like most people have said, I agree that something was lost after Niles and Daphne got together, but as Ouro said - if the show had stopped at series 7, we wouldn't have got to see what happens to them. Even if they didn't have great storylines and character development after SBSB, at least we did get to see something of how their life together progressed.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:10 pm

I voted no. In spite of the criticism - and i give seasons 8-10 plenty too (actually make that 8-11, because that last one isn't actually as spectacular as so many make it out to be) - I'm glad they're here to watch.

I disagree with Cakey on some of the points made. I do think those years are still preferable to watch, in my case at least, than a lot of other shows around. There's only a handful of episodes that i don't really like, and then, only a couple of those have almost no redeeming features. I still find the bulk enjoyable.

I do think Daphne had too much of a personality change in the later years - she did become quite an unlikeable character. I liked Mel, actually, but i wouldn't have left Niles with her for any longer than it ended up. All they really needed to do was think harder about how to develop stories for Niles and Daphne being together. There must have been a welath of opportunity to explore the 'culture clash' between Niles and 'old' Daphne getting together? It's not a good enough excuse to 'blame' Kelsey for suggesting Frasier get more story time.

Bah and, indeed, humbug to everyone who completely dismisses the later years as a waste of time :D
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