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Under Oath

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'To tell the Truth' - what would you have done?

Lie, lie until your pants are on fire
17
89%
Tell the truth no matter what the consequences
2
11%
 
Total votes : 19

Under Oath

Postby ouroboros » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:06 pm

I love the episode To Tell The Truth but I have to say it really bugs me that even after Frasier gives his speech to Niles about how his marriage only lasted as long as it did because of the effort that he put into it, that he still says he doesn't know what the right thing to do is if is asked about Niles feelings for Daphne.

Frasier: "Ethics are what we do when no one else is looking".

I don't believe in God but I totally believe this and so assuming 'under oath' holds the same weight for believers as non believers... what would you do?
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth". Oscar Wilde
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Postby ouroboros » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:07 pm

I picked the first option and agree wholeheartedly with Martin.

"Now you may think I did an unethical thing but there's not a doubt in my mind that I di the right thing".
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth". Oscar Wilde
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Postby Dorset Girl » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:09 pm

I can't vote, because I really don't know. I had the same thoughts when I watched the episode.

All I can say for sure is that, to save mankind from a talking comet, yes - I would lie! :lol:
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Postby Wezzo » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:09 pm

First option.
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Postby ouroboros » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:19 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:I can't vote, because I really don't know. I had the same thoughts when I watched the episode.


:shock: How could you of all people hurt poor wee Niles?
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Postby Bee Gees Fan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:20 pm

I voted for lying.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:23 pm

First option.

It is a difficult decision though. I've been in such a position that Martin describes. If it means somebody you know has comitted a heinous crime (or really any type of crime) and if you answer a question completely honestly, he/she will walk on a technicality, it's painful to be completely honest.

I understand where Frasier is at in that episode. I think had it come down to it, Frasier would have lied under oath but it would have weighed on him heavily for a long time. However, even though he was well aware of how much Niles longed for Daphne, he also knew that his marriage falling apart was not for lack of effort from him. Yep, Frasier would have lied.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:28 pm

ouroboros wrote:
Dorset Girl wrote:I can't vote, because I really don't know. I had the same thoughts when I watched the episode.


:shock: How could you of all people hurt poor wee Niles?


Oh, you're right, I couldn't do it. Okay, option 1 then!

Seriously, reading other people's responses has made me realise that in certain situations, I probably would lie.
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Postby Bad Ambassador » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:32 pm

Yeah, I'd lie. I'm quite good at it.
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Postby ouroboros » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:32 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
ouroboros wrote:
Dorset Girl wrote:I can't vote, because I really don't know. I had the same thoughts when I watched the episode.


:shock: How could you of all people hurt poor wee Niles?


Oh, you're right, I couldn't do it. Okay, option 1 then!

Seriously, reading other people's responses has made me realise that in certain situations, I probably would lie.


Uhoh sorry I didn't want to solicit a vote there. But yeah there are so many areas of grey in certain situations. Truth doesn't always = good. Lying doesn't always = bad. IMHO. Hmm I wonder if maybe a firey debate will start if more votes come in? :P
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Postby ouroboros » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:37 pm

Bad Ambassador wrote:Yeah, I'd lie. I'm quite good at it.


:lol: ditto.
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Postby Pisa32 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:25 pm

I would lie definately if it was the right situation
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Postby DHP » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:30 pm

Like others above, I'm also a cracking liar, but I prefer not to do it. I think you have to treat others as you'd expect to be treated, and I personally find it hurtful to learn I've been lied to, and I prefer not to gamble on the possibility of "if they don't find out I've lied, it's ok..." Also, in the long run, the truth is always best even if at the time it seems easier to lie.
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Postby Bee Gees Fan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:32 pm

DHP wrote:Like others above, I'm also a cracking liar, but I prefer not to do it. I think you have to treat others as you'd expect to be treated, and I personally find it hurtful to learn I've been lied to, and I prefer not to gamble on the possibility of "if they don't find out I've lied, it's ok..." Also, in the long run, the truth is always best even if at the time it seems easier to lie.


Would you agree that white lies are okay, though?

I think avoiding hurting someone's feelings can be better than telling the truth, unless it's a matter of great importance, in which case, offending them might be unavoidable.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:35 pm

Bee Gees Fan wrote:
DHP wrote:Like others above, I'm also a cracking liar, but I prefer not to do it. I think you have to treat others as you'd expect to be treated, and I personally find it hurtful to learn I've been lied to, and I prefer not to gamble on the possibility of "if they don't find out I've lied, it's ok..." Also, in the long run, the truth is always best even if at the time it seems easier to lie.


Would you agree that white lies are okay, though?

I think avoiding hurting someone's feelings can be better than telling the truth, unless it's a matter of great importance, in which case, offending them might be unavoidable.


I agree with BGF. A simple example is - my friend recently lost a stone in weight. She was very pleased about it, and asked me if I could tell by looking at her that her weight had dropped.

What was I supposed to say? "No, you look like a hideous fat hippopotamus!" may have hurt her feelings, so I told her that I could see she was slimmer, and well done!
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Postby DHP » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:37 pm

Bee Gees Fan wrote:
DHP wrote:Like others above, I'm also a cracking liar, but I prefer not to do it. I think you have to treat others as you'd expect to be treated, and I personally find it hurtful to learn I've been lied to, and I prefer not to gamble on the possibility of "if they don't find out I've lied, it's ok..." Also, in the long run, the truth is always best even if at the time it seems easier to lie.


Would you agree that white lies are okay, though?

I think avoiding hurting someone's feelings can be better than telling the truth, unless it's a matter of great importance, in which case, offending them might be unavoidable.


Not really, I think it shows disrespect to the other person and what you think of their capacity to handle something or their right to know. Frankly, I find that lying to someone about something simply means they'll find out the truth later instead of now. Then not only do they get the hurt you were arrogantly trying to protect them from, but they also lose the trust they have for you. I've seen that happen among a few of my friends, who used to be close and no longer speak to each other. It's not worth it.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:49 pm

DHP wrote:
Bee Gees Fan wrote:
DHP wrote:Like others above, I'm also a cracking liar, but I prefer not to do it. I think you have to treat others as you'd expect to be treated, and I personally find it hurtful to learn I've been lied to, and I prefer not to gamble on the possibility of "if they don't find out I've lied, it's ok..." Also, in the long run, the truth is always best even if at the time it seems easier to lie.


Would you agree that white lies are okay, though?

I think avoiding hurting someone's feelings can be better than telling the truth, unless it's a matter of great importance, in which case, offending them might be unavoidable.


Not really, I think it shows disrespect to the other person and what you think of their capacity to handle something or their right to know. Frankly, I find that lying to someone about something simply means they'll find out the truth later instead of now. Then not only do they get the hurt you were arrogantly trying to protect them from, but they also lose the trust they have for you. I've seen that happen among a few of my friends, who used to be close and no longer speak to each other. It's not worth it.


I respectfully disagree with you DHP! Especially looking at DG's example.

Sometimes, saying something that isn't exactly true to avoid hurting someone's feelings is indeed the best route to take. Would you tell somebody their baby was ugly? Even if it was the ugliest baby you've ever seen in your life? How is telling them they have an ugly baby showing them any respect?

Additionally, I'll go back to Martin's argument. If by admitting that you didn't Mirandize somebody whom you know damn well is guilty or didn't do it "properly" a criminal is going to walk free, I find nothing wrong with it.
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Postby Bee Gees Fan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:03 pm

DHP wrote:Not really, I think it shows disrespect to the other person and what you think of their capacity to handle something or their right to know. Frankly, I find that lying to someone about something simply means they'll find out the truth later instead of now. Then not only do they get the hurt you were arrogantly trying to protect them from, but they also lose the trust they have for you. I've seen that happen among a few of my friends, who used to be close and no longer speak to each other. It's not worth it.


I see what you mean, but what if by telling the truth, you manage to really hurt and upset them? Is it worth that, just to tell the truth?
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Postby DHP » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:06 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:I respectfully disagree with you DHP! Especially looking at DG's example.

Sometimes, saying something that isn't exactly true to avoid hurting someone's feelings is indeed the best route to take. Would you tell somebody their baby was ugly? Even if it was the ugliest baby you've ever seen in your life? How is telling them they have an ugly baby showing them any respect?

Additionally, I'll go back to Martin's argument. If by admitting that you didn't Mirandize somebody whom you know damn well is guilty or didn't do it "properly" a criminal is going to walk free, I find nothing wrong with it.


I'm afraid I haven't seen the episode so I'm not familiar with that particular example, but what mother would ask you to tell them if they thought their baby was ugly? Also, I know plenty of people who when asked if they think it shows someone has lost weight or has improved muscle tone etc and say it doesn't show, it doesn't hurt. It just causes the other person to strive harder. And you wouldn't say "it doesn't show, you fat f**k." There's no need to be truthful and a prick. You could simply say that it doesn't show YET. I've seen many instances where that has served to motivate people to continue on the course they've started. I believe it's what friends should do. It shows respect for the other person's capacity to handle the truth, a lack of arrogance in thinking you're the only one who can handle it, and a respect for that person's right to a truthful answer from a friend, and hence grounding the trust they place in you in reality. What else is trust for if not to be used in difficult times?

But hey, if people disagree, fair enough. If nothing else, it at least makes for lively discussion to have at least one different opinion. For my money, lying to people belittles the value you place in them and that they place in you.
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Postby Bee Gees Fan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:09 pm

But if, by telling someone the truth, you do really upset them a lot, then wouldn't it have been better to lie to spare their feelings?
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Postby DHP » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:13 pm

Bee Gees Fan wrote:But if, by telling someone the truth, you do really upset them a lot, then wouldn't it have been better to lie to spare their feelings?


Going back to an earlier point I made, suppose they find out the truth from someone else? Then they lose the trust they placed in you AND get hurt. All you've done is delay that hurt and damage a friendship. I've seen that happen many times, and I personally don't think it's worth the gamble. If you're lying to someone to spare their feelings, you're assuming they're too stupid to find out the truth elsewhere, which again shows a lack of respect to someone. There's a lot more general badness associated with lying to someone than simply not telling them the truth.
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Postby Bee Gees Fan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:22 pm

I think I'd probably respect the fact that they'd lied to spare my feelings, although other people might feel differently.

DHP wrote:If you're lying to someone to spare their feelings, you're assuming they're too stupid to find out the truth elsewhere, which again shows a lack of respect to someone.


I don't think most people assume such a thing when they lie to spare the feelings of others. I think the only thing that's on their mind is, "Well, if I tell the truth, they're going to get upset, so I'd better lie." That's what I've thought whenever I've told a white lie, and I've never assumed that they're too stupid to find out the truth.
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:22 pm

People ask all the time if you think their baby is cute! Or they say things like "Oh, isn't he/she adorable?" And your response is what? No! Your child is ugly! or No, your child is not cute! or even just "No". I hope no friend of yours ever has a baby that isn't the cutest little thing you've ever seen because you WILL hurt them if you say otherwise!

And as to DG's point. A number of years ago, I lost a great deal of weight. Had anyone told me what you suggested, I would have been VERY, VERY hurt! I worked hard to lose that weight and would not have appreciated it one bit if someone told me they couldn't tell! (even if they couldn't tell!) I certainly would not have respected them for telling me "the truth".

I absolutely do not think I'm acting disrespectful to my friends or anyone else if I tell them their child is cute or that I can tell they've lost weight even if both are untrue. I don't think they are dumb by any means. I just don't think they need to have me stomping on their feelings.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one DHP!
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Postby DHP » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:28 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one DHP!


Yep. It's just always been a principle of mine to tell the truth. As I said, there are ways of being tactful and delicate about it. I've not yet wound up with people hating me, themselves or anyone else for telling them the truth, but I have wound up with people hating me for lying to them.
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Postby Bee Gees Fan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:30 pm

DHP, do you believe that by lying to someone to spare their feelings, people are assuming they're stupid?

I'm not sure that's accurate - like I said, I don't think that whenever I tell a white lie, and I would think that most other people don't.
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