The Pyramids - were aliens involved?

[Mr Blue Sky]

If there was nothing after death, then there would, to me, have been no point in life

Wow. Are you aware what a crushingly sad statement that is? It's the opposite of living life to the full and embracing each day as if it's your last.

That's what I love about atheism - it's life-affirming. This is all we get and you have to live your life to its fullest potential. There's no safety net of an 'afterlife'; no 'better place' in heaven. This is all there is, so you'd better make the most of it.

[Bee Gees Fan]

Wow. Are you aware what a crushingly sad statement that is? It's the opposite of living life to the full and embracing each day as if it's your last.

Perhaps it may seem that way but I don't think it is. If there is nothing after death, then, ultimately, where did everything during physical life lead us? Nowhere (it seems to me.) So I believe in continued existence after death. I believe we are spiritual beings that incarnated into the physical in order to learn and that we continue to grow and learn after physical death.

This is all there is, so you'd better make the most of it.

I disagree that this is all there is. I do agree that we should try to make the most of our physical lives, though.

EDIT: MC, I'd be interested in knowing your opinion of Nikola Tesla? I was speaking about him to a new volunteer in the bookshop on Thursday (this person is someone who has studied mathematics and also knows quite a lot about science.) He said that Tesla was more of an "out there" scientist, although his work did consist of "proper" science. I have a biography on Tesla that I have yet to read but he seems to have been an interesting individual. I do know that by the end of his life many had taken to regarding him as a "crank", but he did do a lot for science.

[CatNamedRudy]

If there was nothing after death, then there would, to me, have been no point in life

Wow. Are you aware what a crushingly sad statement that is? It's the opposite of living life to the full and embracing each day as if it's your last.

That's what I love about atheism - it's life-affirming. This is all we get and you have to live your life to its fullest potential. There's no safety net of an 'afterlife'; no 'better place' in heaven. This is all there is, so you'd better make the most of it.

I don't agree that that's specific to atheism. I'm one of those people who isn't sure if there's an afterlife or not. I can't say for sure that there isn't and I can't say for sure that there is. But that doesn't mean I'm living my life for what's in the afterlife! I live my life in the here and now.

[Moon-Crane]

I recently read a text by Dean Radin (Senior Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences) called Entangled Minds: Extrasensory Experiences in a Quantum Reality in which he lays out numerous experiments into telepathy, paranormal, psi and ESP phenomena that have been undertaken, all which indicate that they exist. It was an interesting book and scientifically fair and valid.

He needs to get himself and his evidence over to the JREF and claim James Randi's million dollar prize if he's that confident. I'm sure he could make use of the money - at least by giving it to some other needy people if he doesn't need it himself?

What I believe to be satisfactory evidence is also not necessarily what other people might believe. I read accounts of people having intense spiritual experiences in which they see, feel or sense, a powerful spiritual presence which they believe to be God. Perhaps there is a scientific explanation for these experiences - a release of chemicals in the brain which causes them to undergo hallucinations - but I believe they are real.

There have been scientific experiments to recreate such chemical reactions in subjects while placing them in representations of situations in which people said they'd been visited by god. Should be stuff online about that.

I am also of the opinon that there is a "point" to life, a reason. If there was nothing after death, then there would, to me, have been no point in life, if all that is ultimately going to happen is that we are permanently extinguished. That is why I believe in life after death.

Unfortunately, the reality of things doesn't account for always needing a reason to be. It's a nice thing to believe there must be a reason for things, of course. When people take good thoughts from it it's not a problem. It only becomes problematic when people control others with values stemming from these beliefs. Seems sad to think you're only here as a stopgap to something better - as long as you don't enjoy yourself in this life?

[Mr Blue Sky]

I don't agree that that's specific to atheism. I'm one of those people who isn't sure if there's an afterlife or not.

Heh, yeah, you're not alone. It's something that can't be proven or disproven, hence its enduring popularity as an idea.

I can't say for sure that there isn't and I can't say for sure that there is. But that doesn't mean I'm living my life for what's in the afterlife! I live my life in the here and now.

That's great, I'm sure you do. But many people don't. They are prepared to live miserable existences in the deluded belief that something better awaits them. I've seen this attitude in loads of people and I just want to slap them awake!

[Bee Gees Fan]

When people take good thoughts from it it's not a problem.

Yes, and that is why I feel that my studies into the paranormal have been so beneficial to me. I feel I am learning a lot and I feel I am "growing" and "developing" as an individual due to my spirituality and my studies into the metaphysical.

Of course it shouldn't be used to control people. This problem isn't so prevalent in the realm of metaphysics, though, because metaphysics has not been accepted by mainstream society. The majority, I believe, still dismisses metaphysical and paranormal phenomena as nonsense. Religon, yes, has been used to control people, and that is very unfortunate - because, despite the flaws in many mainstream religions, it can be a source of great comfort to people.

I find Buddhism to be the most gentle and accepting of mainstream religion and also the once that seems most aligned with the metaphysical.

[Bee Gees Fan]

That's great, I'm sure you do. But many people don't. They are prepared to live miserable existences in the deluded belief that something better awaits them. I've seen this attitude in loads of people and I just want to slap them awake!

This is what I find so liberating about the "mind over matter" theory, the theory that we create our own realities, and my studies into the Law of Attraction, magick and radionics. It is stressed that people have control - ultimate control - over their lives, their destinies and that they have the power to create better lives for themselves, whether they do so through the Law of Attraction, or through magick - whatever methods they choose, they can manifest whatever they desire into physical experience. To make this clear as well, they are *also* encouraged to set out and do something physical and practical to change their situation, in conjunction with whatever metaphysical or spiritual process they use to bring about what they desire.

The idea is stressed that life is meant to be joyous and happy. That people came here to learn and to create and that they can make life better for themselves and lead the life that they want to have.

[Mr Blue Sky]

When people take good thoughts from it it's not a problem. It only becomes problematic when people control others with values stemming from these beliefs.

Unfortunately even a benign herd of worshippers who wish nothing but good on people can have a detrimental effect - in that it re-enforces the delusion shared by those who wish to do harm. To quote Robert Pirsig - "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."

This is why I believe even the most benign religious people cause great harm as they re-enforce the beliefs of the kind of evil doers responsible for the 7/7 bombings and the 9/11 attacks.

[Mr Blue Sky]

I recently read a text by Dean Radin (Senior Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences) called Entangled Minds: Extrasensory Experiences in a Quantum Reality in which he lays out numerous experiments into telepathy, paranormal, psi and ESP phenomena that have been undertaken, all which indicate that they exist. It was an interesting book and scientifically fair and valid.

He needs to get himself and his evidence over to the JREF and claim James Randi's million dollar prize if he's that confident. I'm sure he could make use of the money - at least by giving it to some other needy people if he doesn't need it himself?

Could it be that the so-called 'scientific evidence' presented is not quite as airtight as the book BGF has read would have you believe?

[Moon-Crane]

MC, I'd be interested in knowing your opinion of Nikola Tesla?

I've limited knowledge of Tesla, but he was a very accomplished scientist and played a significant part in the seeds of some of the great inventions we have today. Obviously doesn't mean everything he has an opinion or theory about is right, though. Some of it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, imo. It's like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was a great author, for me, but he also believed in Fairies, and Mediums talking to the dead. Doesn't mean i then dismiss everything else he ever did.

[Moon-Crane]

Unfortunately even a benign herd of worshippers who wish nothing but good on people can have a detrimental effect - in that it re-enforces the delusion shared by those who wish to do harm. To quote Robert Pirsig - "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."

This is why I believe even the most benign religious people cause great harm as they re-enforce the beliefs of the kind of evil doers responsible for the 7/7 bombings and the 9/11 attacks.

heh, yes, i probably should have said: when people take good thoughts from those beliefs and keep it to themselves.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Unfortunately even a benign herd of worshippers who wish nothing but good on people can have a detrimental effect - in that it re-enforces the delusion shared by those who wish to do harm. To quote Robert Pirsig - "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."

This is why I believe even the most benign religious people cause great harm as they re-enforce the beliefs of the kind of evil doers responsible for the 7/7 bombings and the 9/11 attacks.

heh, yes, i probably should have said: when people take good thoughts from those beliefs and keep it to themselves.

[Bee Gees Fan]

but he also believed in Fairies, and Mediums talking to the dead.

Well, as you know, I believe in those things too. I've heard spirits' voices myself. I just need to train myself to hear them at will.

[Bee Gees Fan]

Could it be that the so-called 'scientific evidence' presented is not quite as airtight as the book BGF has read would have you believe?

I wil try to find the book again and dig out some quotations. As I recall, quite a few of the experiments were historical ones - J. B. Rhine's ESP card experiments were covered at some length and these took place in the 1930s. The results of the Rhine experiment indicated that there was some form of extrasensory perception going on.

I currently have in my possession The Conscious Universe by the same author, so I will hopefully read it at some stage.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Could it be that the so-called 'scientific evidence' presented is not quite as airtight as the book BGF has read would have you believe?

I wil try to find the book again and dig out some quotations. As I recall, quite a few of the experiments were historical ones - J. B. Rhine's ESP card experiments were covered at some length and these took place in the 1930s. The results of the Rhine experiment indicated that there was some form of extrasensory perception going on.

I currently have in my possession The Conscious Universe by the same author, so I will hopefully read it at some stage.

I'm absolutely certain those have been debunked somewhere along the way. I'll try and find out what I read about it.

[Moon-Crane]

but he also believed in Fairies, and Mediums talking to the dead.

Well, as you know, I believe in those things too. I've heard spirits' voices myself. I just need to train myself to hear them at will.

I know you believe that people can speak to the dead rather than it being the long performed circus trick based on Barnum statements, but you also believe in fairies?

[Bee Gees Fan]

but you also believe in fairies?

Yes, or nature spirits, as they are also called.

I have heard voices from spirits myself, I just need to develop my abilities.

[Moon-Crane]

Could it be that the so-called 'scientific evidence' presented is not quite as airtight as the book BGF has read would have you believe?

I wil try to find the book again and dig out some quotations. As I recall, quite a few of the experiments were historical ones - J. B. Rhine's ESP card experiments were covered at some length and these took place in the 1930s. The results of the Rhine experiment indicated that there was some form of extrasensory perception going on.

I currently have in my possession The Conscious Universe by the same author, so I will hopefully read it at some stage.

I'm absolutely certain those have been debunked somewhere along the way. I'll try and find out what I read about it.

Rhine's work is seen as dubious as it was never, ever able to be repeated. Princeton University conducted the exact same experiment using all the details given by Rhine and never beat the chance figures. There were also people who were tested by Rhine, who showed high ESP results when he did the experiments who reverted to chance when others tested them. That's not saying Rhine was particularly cheating, just that some might have found a way to dupe him during his own setup.

Rhine ran his experiments for long periods to gather data and only went back to study that data much later. I think many people have written about the flaws of Rhine's testing methods. He's been shown to be hazy on accounting for the various types of chance and probability that can occur during his experiments. For example he seemed to discount the probability of some people doing significantly better than chance at times - i could guess 40 out of 50 cards correctly on any particular day, as much as i could guess only 10 or less on another - even if over the course of 100 tests i averaged out at the expected chance level. However, it's reported that while he took any high figures he had as proof of ESP, he'd take particularly low figures also as evidence of ESP - just performed by people who didn't like him so he believed they deliberately gave the wrong answer out of spite

I don't think he was necessarily out to hoodwink people, as he also helped Houdini debunk a supposed medium back in the day. I think his scientific methods are called into question, especially when people look at the environment and some of the people who helped him with the experiments.

Talking of Houdini, you should look into his life and read around the work he carried out debunking charlatans of the time. Worth reading about when you have time.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Rhine's work is seen as dubious as it was never, ever able to be repeated. Princeton University conducted the exact same experiment using all the details given by Rhine and never beat the chance figures. There were also people who were tested by Rhine, who showed high ESP results when he did the experiments who reverted to chance when others tested them. That's not saying Rhine was particularly cheating, just that some might have found a way to dupe him during his own setup.

Rhine ran his experiments for long periods to gather data and only went back to study that data much later. I think many people have written about the flaws of Rhine's testing methods. He's been shown to be hazy on accounting for the various types of chance and probability that can occur during his experiments. For example he seemed to discount the probability of some people doing significantly better than chance at times - i could guess 40 out of 50 cards correctly on any particular day, as much as i could guess only 10 or less on another - even if over the course of 100 tests i averaged out at the expected chance level. However, it's reported that while he took any high figures he had as proof of ESP, he'd take particularly low figures also as evidence of ESP - just performed by people who didn't like him so he believed they deliberately gave the wrong answer out of spite

I don't think he was necessarily out to hoodwink people, as he also helped Houdini debunk a supposed medium back in the day. I think his scientific methods are called into question, especially when people look at the environment and some of the people who helped him with the experiments.

Talking of Houdini, you should look into his life and read around the work he carried out debunking charlatans of the time. Worth reading about when you have time.

Have you written about this on the forum before? It sounds very familiar. That bit about him discounting people who gave low ESP results as he assumed they were doing it on purpose out of spite should be enough to tell anyone his results can't be taken seriously. I presume that was left out of BGF's book...

I'll have a read up on Houdini - I don't know much about him apart from his famous escapology stunts. He sounds more like Penn and Teller than David Blaine!

[Moon-Crane]

Have you written about this on the forum before? It sounds very familiar. That bit about him discounting people who gave low ESP results as he assumed they were doing it on purpose out of spite should be enough to tell anyone his results can't be taken seriously. I presume that was left out of BGF's book...

Not sure, but there are bound to be articles around the web about it.

I'll have a read up on Houdini - I don't know much about him apart from his famous escapology stunts. He sounds more like Penn and Teller than David Blaine!

He definitely was the predecessor to P&T and their ilk. Houdini was a massive influence for both his approach to the entertainment and his public voice against fraudsters pretending their magic tricks were real supernatural powers. Well worth checking out his story.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Have you written about this on the forum before? It sounds very familiar. That bit about him discounting people who gave low ESP results as he assumed they were doing it on purpose out of spite should be enough to tell anyone his results can't be taken seriously. I presume that was left out of BGF's book...

Not sure, but there are bound to be articles around the web about it.

I'll have a read up on Houdini - I don't know much about him apart from his famous escapology stunts. He sounds more like Penn and Teller than David Blaine!

He definitely was the predecessor to P&T and their ilk. Houdini was a massive influence for both his approach to the entertainment and his public voice against fraudsters pretending their magic tricks were real supernatural powers. Well worth checking out his story.

I spent a long time yesterday doing just that! Fascinating stuff - I admire him even more now.

[Dorset Girl]

This is a very random post, sorry! It's not directly connected to this thread, but thought I'd post it here anyway, as the idea of religion has been mentioned a few times. I've been looking into whether there is a correlation between IQ and religiosity (i.e. whether a person believes in God, and which religion they align themselves with) and wealth and religiosity.

Apparently, when looking at the Western World, there are negative correlations in both cases - in other words, broadly speaking, a person with a higher IQ is less likely to believe in God than a person with a lower IQ, and a person with a higher than average level of wealth is less likely to believe in God than a person with a lower income. In the case of wealth the correlation isn't that strong, but nevertheless it's significant.

In terms of intelligence level, I guess this would make sense - someone with a higher IQ is perhaps more likely to question the existence of a 'supreme being'. In terms of wealth - well, I'm guessing there's a link between income and intelligence, so that would make sense too. I also wonder if, generally speaking, a person who is strongly religious is more likely to have moral objections about some of the aggressive techniques used to get ahead in a capitalist society? Maybe I'm being to presumptuous there, though.

On a worldwide level, communist countries where atheism is compulsory mess up the figures, as income levels are generally low too!

So there we are, that's my random post over with.

[Bee Gees Fan]

On a worldwide level, communist countries where atheism is compulsory mess up the figures, as income levels are generally low too!

That is my main problem with Communism (or perhaps I should say Communist governments.) Communism, I think, espouses some nice ideas (rather idealistic ones too) but I dislike the way that many Communist governments seem to seek to try to control their people and try to control how they think.

If a person wants to be religious, let them.

By the same token, if a person wants to be an atheist, again, let them.

[Bee Gees Fan]

On a different topic, what do people think of the experiences that twins have, which some attribute to ESP? (I'm talking about one twin instinctively "knowing" when another twin is in some sort of trouble or danger - they get a feeling that something is wrong - or one twin feeling pain when the other has had an injury.) There are many examples of this sort of thing occurring with both identical twins and fraternal twins and I've always found it interesting.

http://multiples.about.com/od/funfacts/ ... epathy.htm

This link here has some good insights on the subject. The author states that there is not yet any scientific evidence to suggest that these experiences are down to ESP, and she herself seems to go with the theory that the experiences are most likely due to the fact that twins usually share a deep and close emotional bond or connection.

Even it's not ESP, I still like to read about this kind of stuff. For quite a long time, I've wished I could have a twin of my own.

[Moon-Crane]

I also wonder if, generally speaking, a person who is strongly religious is more likely to have moral objections about some of the aggressive techniques used to get ahead in a capitalist society?

Hehe, judging by the shit that goes on on the god channels there's no limit to religious folks' capitalist techniques

I would think that genuine god-fearing people would draw the line sooner, though. But, then, i'm not at all religious and like to think there are lines i wouldn't cross for a bit of material wealth.