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Postby welshben23 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:52 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:
Dorset Girl wrote:
welshben23 wrote:Wonderfully put DG. That is a marvellous post, I agree with the whole lot.


Thank you Ben, but I wouldn't mind betting that you're the only person who responds to my post like that!


I have to admit my ignorance in that prior to belonging to this forum, I was unaware that Wales was it's own country! I thought it was just a "region" of England! :oops:

I guess I have always been too busy drinking with the Irish and the Scottish to consider Wales! :wink:


Cat, thank you! You've helped me prove one of my points. :) I don't for one minute think it's 'your fault' that you didn't know that, it's just a common belief, and one that in my view understandably grates on the Welsh.

Before anyone else says it, Wales is technically a 'principality' rather than a country, which is unfortunately one reason why their powers are so limited at present. Very few English people actually realise that it's a principality - anyone seen the advert for that new Noel Edmonds show recently? He asks 'how many countries make up Great Britain?' I'd put money on them taking 'three' as the correct answer, whereas it's actually 'two and a principality'.


Isn't it 3 and a principality, including Northern Ireland? :?:
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:54 pm

welshben23 wrote:Isn't it 3 and a principality, including Northern Ireland? :?:


I thought the UK was 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'?

Hence Britain being England, Scotland and Wales?

I may be wrong there though. :?
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Postby welshben23 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:54 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
welshben23 wrote:Isn't it 3 and a principality, including Northern Ireland? :?:


I thought the UK was 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'?

Hence Britain being England, Scotland and Wales?

I may be wrong there though. :?


Whoops, I'm sorry you are right.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:55 pm

welshben23 wrote:
Dorset Girl wrote:
welshben23 wrote:Isn't it 3 and a principality, including Northern Ireland? :?:


I thought the UK was 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'?

Hence Britain being England, Scotland and Wales?

I may be wrong there though. :?


Whoops, I'm sorry you are right.


Phew, that's good, I'd have undermined my whole argument about ignorance if I was wrong! :lol:
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:59 pm

How can English people get blamed for other people in other countries not knowing Wales is a country? :lol:

Wales should have a similar govt situation as Scotland - again that's not the fault of the average English person.

And i said on another thread, you can't associate the press with anything to do with me :lol:
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:02 pm

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Dorset Girl wrote:What Ben said on the other thread about it getting 'rubbed in' if England do well is perfectly valid, IMO.


Nah. The media report spectacular Welsh, Scottish and Irish sporting triumphs just as much. Remember when England didn't qualify for USA '94 and we all became Irish that summer? :wink:

Scots, Welsh and Irish victories successes don't get reported too much because there aren't many of them. It's a sporting fact of life that if you hail from those countries you're going to resent your bigger, more successful neighbours. Personally, I'm happy to see all the home nations do well (I'll be rooting for the Scots to qualify from their very tough group, they've almost done it) but the fact that that goodwill isn't extended the other way means I'm able to laugh if they fall flat on their faces. Irish fans are the least resentful, I find.


Yes, there are more English triumphs, that can't be denied (perhaps for the reasons I outlined above), and as an English person myself I obviously want to see England win! Perhaps the reason the Welsh seem / are more bitter about it is because they suffer the most from 'Englishness'.

I don't know much about Northern Ireland, but in terms of Scotland (population just over 5 million) - they have 'devolved' much more than Wales. The Scottish Parliament has much more power than the National Assembly for Wales, and consequently in areas such as education, they have been able to 'break away' from England a lot more. There are more Scottish newspapers than Welsh ones for instance, and it is obvious that 'local' papers give preference to 'local' news.

Wales is still very much ruled from Westminster, and as the population are dwarfed by England, then IMHO they sometimes sink into oblivion - well, if not oblivion, somewhere very close!


You're onto something there. Once the apron strings are cut, the resentment may subside. The debate in Scotland for total devolution is interesting. The sensible pragmatists realise Scotland will be a much poorer country with much less influence if they completely divorce themselves from the UK. The nationalists aren't bothered about that, they just want nothing to do with England. With Alex Salmond as First Minister of Scotland that day will come sooner rather than later. I'm just glad it didn't happen before we got our hands on that lovely North Sea oil which just about saved our economy back in the 70s! :lol:
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:06 pm

I think most English people are happy for Wales to hold their own powers and raise their own finances. Scotland, Wales and England should have their own governance, with a British pact held in place.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:10 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:How can English people get blamed for other people in other countries not knowing Wales is a country? :lol:


Sorry, I didn't word that very well - how can I explain? Although it's not the fault of the English, Wales is often assumed by the rest of the world to be part of England. It's not recognised in its own right.

The only analogy I can think of is this - my maiden surname was quite unusual, and when my younger sister went through school, a lot of the teachers who had also taught me called her 'Becky' by mistake, because of the surname! This understandably pissed her off, because she's a person in her own right, and wanted to be seen as such. Her resentment was directed at me, because she felt that the teachers were comparing her to me, and she perhaps subconsciously felt that, because they could remember my name and not hers, she was being compared unfavourably.

This is how I see it with the Welsh and English - not a perfect analogy, but the best I can come up with at the mo.

Wales should have a similar govt situation as Scotland - again that's not the fault of the average English person.

No, it's not the fault of the average English person, but it is the fault of a largely English government, hence fuelling the 'anti-Englishness'.

And i said on another thread, you can't associate the press with anything to do with me :lol:

No, me neither, but we are English and so are the newspapers I'm talking about, so we get tarred with the same brush! It's human nature I think, that's why national stereotypes exist - e.g. some countries have a reputation for being lazy, or violent, or smelly, or rich, or pretty... need I go on? Not everyone in the country has to fit the stereotype, but the human mind sorts things into categories.
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:15 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:I think most English people are happy for Wales to hold their own powers and raise their own finances. Scotland, Wales and England should have their own governance, with a British pact held in place.


Completely agree, and as you said earlier MC, the average English person isn't to blame because the Welsh don't govern their own country!
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:20 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:I think most English people are happy for Wales to hold their own powers and raise their own finances. Scotland, Wales and England should have their own governance, with a British pact held in place.


I wouldn't have any objections to that. As BN says, it's not necessarily the best idea for the countries themselves though. As a whole, Britain is much stronger I think.

However, I can see some advantages. At the moment, money for the National Assembly (WNA) comes from central Government. It gets no more money on average than any other British Authority. However, before it reaches the NHS, education, or the plethora of other areas it's intended for, money is 'skimmed off' by the WNA for Assembly Members' salaries, admin costs, etc. This money is substantial, and leads to a relative shortfall of funding for everything else.

Anyone living in Wales a few years ago would have been aware of the ridiculous sum of money spent on the new WNA building, and the mis-management which put the costs up even further. This contributes even more to the shortfall of funding that e.g. the Welsh NHS finds itself with.

In my opinion, there are also some really weird decisions being taken by the WNA. For instance - everyone now gets free prescriptions. Looks great on the surface, wins votes.... but that money is needed for the NHS in Wales. It seems very shortsighted to me. After being in hospital in Swansea, where there aren't even chairs in some of the waiting rooms and the ancient windows are cracked and drafty because of lack of funding, it baffles me as to why this decision was taken.

Sorry.... I've gone off at a tangent. What I mean to say is - devolution, yes - fine, but if Wales is to stop itself 'falling apart', the WNA needs to be examined and restructured.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:27 pm

Beer Necessity wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:I think most English people are happy for Wales to hold their own powers and raise their own finances. Scotland, Wales and England should have their own governance, with a British pact held in place.


Completely agree, and as you said earlier MC, the average English person isn't to blame because the Welsh don't govern their own country!


It's not always about the 'average person' though, is it? Like I said, there are all sorts of stereotypes in this world, that categorise people. It doesn't mean everyone that's slotted into a particular category conforms to them.

It stand to reason that something Gordon Brown says is going to have a heck of a lot more impact on the way the Welsh view the English than something you or I might say.
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Postby Mr Blue Sky » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:33 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
Beer Necessity wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:I think most English people are happy for Wales to hold their own powers and raise their own finances. Scotland, Wales and England should have their own governance, with a British pact held in place.


Completely agree, and as you said earlier MC, the average English person isn't to blame because the Welsh don't govern their own country!


It's not always about the 'average person' though, is it? Like I said, there are all sorts of stereotypes in this world, that categorise people. It doesn't mean everyone that's slotted into a particular category conforms to them.

It stand to reason that something Gordon Brown says is going to have a heck of a lot more impact on the way the Welsh view the English than something you or I might say.


Ironically, yes. :wink:
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Postby Mayday Malone » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:36 pm

B****** people who continue to play their music on their phones out loud. I don't want to hear you're b****** Sugarkids or whatever...HEADPHONES!!!
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:13 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:In my opinion, there are also some really weird decisions being taken by the WNA. For instance - everyone now gets free prescriptions. Looks great on the surface, wins votes.... but that money is needed for the NHS in Wales. It seems very shortsighted to me. After being in hospital in Swansea, where there aren't even chairs in some of the waiting rooms and the ancient windows are cracked and drafty because of lack of funding, it baffles me as to why this decision was taken.


That's something i've always wondered about. It always looked like a policy to end in tears - otherwise everywhere would be doing the same thing, if it worked so easily. Is it going to get to the stage where it all goes awry and the government has to 'bail out' the Welsh NHS to make up for the shortfall? it could be literally life and death to some patients.

That's really why i'd rather have Wales in charge of their own taxation within their borders, if they are able to make such starkly important decisions as the removal of a prescription charge. England will once again get the blame for the ensuing disaster, i'm sure.

The English system is also a strange one, though. I don't like the way Local Authorities can make their own decisions regarding the rollouts of systems to deal with rubbish collection, recycling, etc. One system across the board should surely make it easier - and more sensible than a mish mash of systems from one county to another.
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:30 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:That's something i've always wondered about. It always looked like a policy to end in tears - otherwise everywhere would be doing the same thing, if it worked so easily. Is it going to get to the stage where it all goes awry and the government has to 'bail out' the Welsh NHS to make up for the shortfall? it could be literally life and death to some patients.

Absolutely.

I don't know how Swansea hospital compares to others across England, but I do know how it compares to e.g. Dorchester. If I hadn't have had a miscarriage last year, I would have been having my baby in Swansea. The 13 weeks experience I did have of the maternity care there pales into comparison with what I've had in Swanage this year. For instance, because of funding shortages there are no 12-week scans available in Swansea, unless you 'cheat' the system in some way, e.g. by saying that you want screening for Downs and then changing your mind after the scan. Here, and I believe in most other places in England, 12-week scans are pretty standard.

During / after the miscarriage, I was in hospital there, and although the staff were friendly enough and tried their best, the lack of equipment, staff and resources was obvious. I won't go into details but there were some serious shortfalls in my treatment due to lack of resources which led to some nasty complications - and that's just one such case, I'm sure there are hundreds. I know you hear 'horror stories' from everywhere, but having experienced it first-hand, it's obvious to me that the chronic underfunding has resulted in a pretty serious situation. This can only be made worse by stopping prescription charges.


That's really why i'd rather have Wales in charge of their own taxation within their borders, if they are able to make such starkly important decisions as the removal of a prescription charge. England will once again get the blame for the ensuing disaster, i'm sure.

I don't see how, unless people point to the reason for it being because Westminster are limiting their powers - is that what you mean? I agree though, this 'half and half' situation is not working. Personally, my view is that the National Assembly should be abolished and that it should go back to complete rule from Westminster. If the NA are given complete power, then I would be very worried about what would happen to Welsh services, etc.

However, with the recent Welsh Language laws and the progress that has been made towards devolution, I can't see the Nationalists being happy to relinquish the limited powers they have.

The English system is also a strange one, though. I don't like the way Local Authorities can make their own decisions regarding the rollouts of systems to deal with rubbish collection, recycling, etc. One system across the board should surely make it easier - and more sensible than a mish mash of systems from one county to another.

Hehe, yeah I ranted about that on another thread, so I won't say too much here! In my opinion though, that's one area that Swansea have got right and Dorset have got wrong - the recycling and refuse collection services are much more comprehensive than they are here.
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:33 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:It's not always about the 'average person' though, is it? Like I said, there are all sorts of stereotypes in this world, that categorise people. It doesn't mean everyone that's slotted into a particular category conforms to them.

It stand to reason that something Gordon Brown says is going to have a heck of a lot more impact on the way the Welsh view the English than something you or I might say.


It's a fair point, and people need to rise above such generalisation. I don't hate all Americans for some dubious policies by the Bush administration, or conversely, hate all Muslim people because of high profile acts of 'extremism' - plenty of people do, though, unfortunately. I hope i take people as they come, wherever they're from.

People do generally stick with their herd - hence Frank Lampard gets booed by loads of people for England because a few people decide to do it.

I don't read any newspapers any more, because i just don't like the way they operate - I don't buy them then sit around moaning about how terrible they are. Instead of moaning about English bias in newspapers, just don't buy them. there must surely be Welsh newspapers to buy? The market seems obviously there. Sick of English dominated tv programmes? Campaign for a regionalised Welsh version of channels in this multi-channel digital age. Same with radio. It'll come down to business decisions - if it becomes more profitable to target the Welsh specifically, it will happen.

On a light-hearted note, Wales will get their wish of not being run by the English soon anyway - we'll all be controlled by Europe :wink:
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:41 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:That's really why i'd rather have Wales in charge of their own taxation within their borders, if they are able to make such starkly important decisions as the removal of a prescription charge. England will once again get the blame for the ensuing disaster, i'm sure.

I don't see how, unless people point to the reason for it being because Westminster are limiting their powers - is that what you mean? I agree though, this 'half and half' situation is not working. Personally, my view is that the National Assembly should be abolished and that it should go back to complete rule from Westminster. If the NA are given complete power, then I would be very worried about what would happen to Welsh services, etc.[/quote]

I'm not exactly sure how it works with Scotland, but could something similar be implemented?
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:56 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:It's a fair point, and people need to rise above such generalisation.

In an ideal world... :(


I don't read any newspapers any more, because i just don't like the way they operate - I don't buy them then sit around moaning about how terrible they are. Instead of moaning about English bias in newspapers, just don't buy them. there must surely be Welsh newspapers to buy? The market seems obviously there. Sick of English dominated tv programmes? Campaign for a regionalised Welsh version of channels in this multi-channel digital age. Same with radio. It'll come down to business decisions - if it becomes more profitable to target the Welsh specifically, it will happen.

To list the 'facts':

Papers - Wales has local papers (e.g. covering one city or county) just as England does. To my knowledge, there is only one paper that covers the whole of Wales - the Welsh Mirror, which is possibly only available on a Sunday, I'm not sure? There is the Western Mail / Wales on Sunday, which I think only covers South Wales.

Radio - again, there are local independent stations. The BBC have a Welsh-Language station and an English-Language station.

TV (BBC) - England is split into regions, but Wales isn't big enough population-wise to do that, so it is just one region.

I can't see it ever becoming more profitable to target the Welsh specifically. Not only do you have the problem of low population and therefore low viewing / reader figures, but you have the language split as well. Some people want materials in Welsh, some people want them in English.

Campaigning for a regional TV channel (aside from S4C which in my opinion is just there to keep the Welsh Language lobbyists happy) would be the equivalent of campaigning for e.g. a West Country only channel in England. The only one I know of in existence is London TV, and even though it covers the largest population centre in Britain, it's viewing figures are low, revenue is therefore low and so output is poor.


On a light-hearted note, Wales will get their wish of not being run by the English soon anyway - we'll all be controlled by Europe :wink:

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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:02 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
On a light-hearted note, Wales will get their wish of not being run by the English soon anyway - we'll all be controlled by Europe :wink:

Image


Actually, that's a point in itself - how many British people resent the 'interference' from Europe? Quite a lot, I imagine. Why do we resent it - do we feel that it's taking away our identity and individuality? Perhaps that's how the Welsh feel about the English? :?
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:08 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
Dorset Girl wrote:
On a light-hearted note, Wales will get their wish of not being run by the English soon anyway - we'll all be controlled by Europe :wink:

Image


Actually, that's a point in itself - how many British people resent the 'interference' from Europe? Quite a lot, I imagine. Why do we resent it - do we feel that it's taking away our identity and individuality? Perhaps that's how the Welsh feel about the English? :?


You're all controlled by America anyway so what difference does it make? :wink:
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Postby Dorset Girl » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:19 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:You're all controlled by America anyway so what difference does it make? :wink:


Oh nooo, Cat.... what have you done? :lol:

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It doesn't scare me being controlled by America so much as the thought that ultimately it's George Bush at the top! That really freaks me out!

If Europe was properly united instead of faffing around though, there'd be quite a bit of power there...
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:20 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:You're all controlled by America anyway so what difference does it make? :wink:


Oh nooo, Cat.... what have you done? :lol:

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It doesn't scare me being controlled by America so much as the thought that ultimately it's George Bush at the top! That really freaks me out...


Freaks me out too!
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:55 pm

Dorset Girl wrote:To list the 'facts':

Papers - Wales has local papers (e.g. covering one city or county) just as England does. To my knowledge, there is only one paper that covers the whole of Wales - the Welsh Mirror, which is possibly only available on a Sunday, I'm not sure? There is the Western Mail / Wales on Sunday, which I think only covers South Wales.

Radio - again, there are local independent stations. The BBC have a Welsh-Language station and an English-Language station.

TV (BBC) - England is split into regions, but Wales isn't big enough population-wise to do that, so it is just one region.

I can't see it ever becoming more profitable to target the Welsh specifically. Not only do you have the problem of low population and therefore low viewing / reader figures, but you have the language split as well. Some people want materials in Welsh, some people want them in English.

Campaigning for a regional TV channel (aside from S4C which in my opinion is just there to keep the Welsh Language lobbyists happy) would be the equivalent of campaigning for e.g. a West Country only channel in England. The only one I know of in existence is London TV, and even though it covers the largest population centre in Britain, it's viewing figures are low, revenue is therefore low and so output is poor.


If Wales wants it's own identity though, especially to the rest of the world, a n independent media outlet would be a good start. I'd imagine BBC1 Wales could be pretty much run with a huge Welsh bias, using Welsh presenters, Welsh biased sports shows, etc. With digital tv, you can watch any region anyway, if people would rather watch the English one for example.

The language thing is a strange one for me. Obviously the staunch nationalists want Welsh as the first language, but they seem to be a minority, whatever they say?

If the will is strong enough, a way could be found to run workable newspapers, tv, radio, etc. It all seems necessary for your own identity. Does Luxemburg have it's own media? I don't know. Do they take French programmes?

I couldn't comment on the commercial aspect, but the cut of the BBC revenue from Welsh people could go towards a more Welsh-oriented network - if it doesn't already. I'd imagine it's mainly sport and politics shows where a different need is a must. Other shows seem fairly general, with presenters from all parts of the UK.

The West Country is a law unto itself anyway aren't you :wink:
Actually, it's Cornwall that always makes noises about independence, isn't it :lol:
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Postby Moon-Crane » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:58 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:You're all controlled by America anyway so what difference does it make? :wink:


:lol:

That's just what we want you to think. The power base is a secret society, based in London & Paris, if you read the conspiracy theories :D
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Postby CatNamedRudy » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:04 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:You're all controlled by America anyway so what difference does it make? :wink:


:lol:

That's just what we want you to think. The power base is a secret society, based in London & Paris, if you read the conspiracy theories :D


Cool! Can we send George W. to the power base then? PLEASE???????????????
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