The Doctor Who Discussion Thread

[Cake for Brains]

The Cybermen were made to look like a joke and the resolution was the worst thing I've ever seen in Doctor Who.

Worse than the Doctor magically coming back to life through the power of chanting his name? Worse than Donna pushing a few buttons to destroy every single Dalek? And in case I'm accused of RTD-bashing, worse than the Doctor re-appearing simply by remembering him? I buy the 'power of love' far more than I bought those things - the instinct to protect your kin is far more believable, even under the crazy circumstances!

Don't get me wrong, I thought it was lazy. But Doctor Who has never been the best at plot resolutions, and I didn't feel this was any worse than what we've seen before.

Moffat's right about the finales, mind you. But an extra 15 minutes would make all the difference.

You RTD basher, you!

I would argue that tonight's was much worse than all those examples you mentioned. At least Last of the Time Lords and Journeys End actually built to a climax (in fact I like the Donna resolution). At least there was something at stake. At least there was a price to pay. At least all the stuff surrounding it was memorable.

*Calm down Cakey*

[Paul B]

The Cybermen were made to look like a joke and the resolution was the worst thing I've ever seen in Doctor Who.

Worse than the Doctor magically coming back to life through the power of chanting his name? Worse than Donna pushing a few buttons to destroy every single Dalek? And in case I'm accused of RTD-bashing, worse than the Doctor re-appearing simply by remembering him? I buy the 'power of love' far more than I bought those things - the instinct to protect your kin is far more believable, even under the crazy circumstances!

Don't get me wrong, I thought it was lazy. But Doctor Who has never been the best at plot resolutions, and I didn't feel this was any worse than what we've seen before.

Moffat's right about the finales, mind you. But an extra 15 minutes would make all the difference.

You RTD basher, you!

I would argue that tonight's was much worse than all those examples you mentioned. At least Last of the Time Lords and Journeys End actually built to a climax (in fact I like the Donna resolution). At least there was something at stake. At least there was a price to pay. At least all the stuff surrounding it was memorable.

*Calm down Cakey*

You're right, of course. I don't mean to defend this episode, it was very middle-of-the-road. But I wasn't outright offended by it as I have been by the likes of Night Terrors, the awful gangers 2-parter, and a few in past seasons I won't anger you by mentioning.

[Cake for Brains]

Well, I'm bored, so I thought I'd play a little Doctor Who game with myself;

Best Episode 1
Smith and Jones / Partners in Crime / The Impossible Astronaut / Rose / The Eleventh Hour / New Earth

Best Episode 2
The End of the World / Day of the Moon / The Shakespeare Code / Tooth and Claw / The Fires of Pompeii / The Beast Below

Best Episode 3
Gridlock / School Reunion / Planet of the Ood / The Unquiet Dead / The Curse of the Black Spot / Victory of the Daleks

Best Episode 4
The Doctor's Wife / Aliens of London / The Girl in the Fireplace / The Time of Angels / The Sontaran Strategem / The Poison Sky

Best Episode 5
World War Three / The Poison Sky / Flesh and Stone / The Rebel Flesh / Rise of the Cybermen / Evolution of the Daleks

Best Episode 6
Dalek / The Lazarus Experiment / The Almost People / The Age of Steel / Vampires in Venice / The Doctor's Daughter

Best Episode 7
A Good Man Goes to War / The Unicorn and the Wasp / The Long Game / Amy's Choice / The Idiot's Lantern / 42

Best Episode 8
Human Nature / The Impossible Planet / Father's Day / Let's Kill Hitler / Silence in the Library / The Hungry Earth

Best Episode 9
The Family of Blood / The Empty Child / The Satan Pit / Forest of the Dead / Night Terrors / Cold Blood

Best Episode 10
Love & Monsters / Midnight / The Doctor Dances / Blink / The Girl Who Waited / Vincent and the Doctor

Best Wpisode 11
Turn Left / Utopia / Boom Town / The God Complex / The Lodger / Fear Her

Best Episode 12
The Sound of Drums / Bad Wolf / The Stolen Earth / Army of Ghosts / The Pandorica Opens / Closing Time

Best Episode 13
Ooh, let's see...

Wow, that was FUN!

[Cake for Brains]

You're right, of course. I don't mean to defend this episode, it was very middle-of-the-road. But I wasn't outright offended by it as I have been by the likes of Night Terrors, the awful gangers 2-parter, and a few in past seasons I won't anger you by mentioning.

Probably for the best. I'd hate for you to lose an argument...

[Paul B]

Eh, may as well join you...

Episode 1
1) Smith and Jones
2) The Impossible Astronaut
3) The Eleventh Hour
4) Partners in Crime
5) Rose
6) New Earth

Episode 2
1) Day of the Moon
2) The Shakespeare Code
3) The Fires of Pompeii
4) The Beast Below
5) The End of the World
6) Tooth and Claw

Episode 3
1) Planet of the Ood
2) Gridlock
3) Victory of the Daleks
4) The Unquiet Dead
5) School Reunion
6) The Curse of the Black Spot

Episode 4
1) The Doctor's Wife
2) The Girl in the Fireplace
3) The Time of Angels
4) The Sontaran Stratagem
6) Daleks in Manhattan/Aliens of London (impossible to favor one above the other!!)

Episode 5
1) Flesh and Stone
2) The Poison Sky
3) The Rebel Flesh
4) Rise of the Cybermen
5) World War Three
6) Evolution of the Daleks

(blimey - apart from episode 1, what a dreadful batch!)

Episode 6
1) Dalek
2) The Lazarus Experiment
3) The Doctor's Daughter
4) The Almost People
5) Vampires of Venice
6) The Age of Steel

(this batch doesn't fare much better either!)

Episode 7
1) A Good Man Goes to War
2) The Unicorn and the Wasp
3) Amy's Choice
4) 42
5) The Idiot's Lantern
6) The Long Game

Episode 8
1) Silence in the Library
2) Human Nature
3) The Impossible Planet
4) Let's Kill Hitler
5) Father's Day
6) The Hungry Earth

(particularly strong batch there - with 1 glaring exception)

Episode 9
1) Forest of the Dead
2) The Family of Blood
3) The Satan Pit
4) The Empty Child
5) Cold Blood
6) Night Terrors

Episode 10
1) Blink
2) Love & Monsters
3) The Doctor Dances
4) The Girl Who Waited
5) Vincent and the Doctor
6,389,147) Midnight

Episode 11
1) Turn Left
2) Utopia
3) Boom Town
4) The God Complex
5) The Lodger
6) Fear Her

(same ranking as you!)

Episode 12
1) The Sound of Drums
2) The Stolen Earth
3) The Pandorica Opens
4) Bad Wolf
5) Army of Ghosts
6) Closing Time

[Cake for Brains]

Yes, there really are some atrocious fifth and sixth episodes, aren't there? The strongest category is the Episode 10s, I think. Tonight's ep broke the run of fantastic twelth episodes, sadly.

A couple of crazy choices (Planet of the Ood above Gridlock?! The classic that is Aliens of London at the bottom of the pile!). And I didn't realise you loved the library two-parter so much.

May as well do the Christmas Specials too -

1. The Christmas Invasion
2. A Christmas Carol
3. The Next Doctor
4. The End of Time (doesn't feel like a Christmas Special though)
5. The Runaway Bride
6. Voyage of the Damned (it does have Russell Tovey in a Naval Officer's uniform though... hmm, maybe it should be higher).

[Paul B]

A couple of crazy choices (Planet of the Ood above Gridlock?! The classic that is Aliens of London at the bottom of the pile!). And I didn't realise you loved the library two-parter so much.

Yes, they've always been favourites of mine. A big reason for that is probably River Song. Who knew back then she'd play such a large role in the series? It really kicks the Moffat era into gear, and is wonderfully enjoyable, to boot.

Christmas specials
1) The Christmas Invasion
2) The End of Time
3) The Next Doctor
4) A Christmas Carol
5) The Runaway Bride
6) Voyage of the Damned

Only really awful one there is Voyage, apart from the highlight you mention.

[Cake for Brains]

A couple of crazy choices (Planet of the Ood above Gridlock?! The classic that is Aliens of London at the bottom of the pile!). And I didn't realise you loved the library two-parter so much.

Yes, they've always been favourites of mine. A big reason for that is probably River Song. Who knew back then she'd play such a large role in the series? It really kicks the Moffat era into gear, and is wonderfully enjoyable, to boot.

Christmas specials
1) The Christmas Invasion
2) The End of Time
3) The Next Doctor
4) A Christmas Carol
5) The Runaway Bride
6) Voyage of the Damned

Only really awful one there is Voyage, apart from the highlight you mention.

It's been my desktop wallpaper for years now!

I like the library eps well enough, though I saw them a few months ago and it feels a bit strange seeing River with the Tenth Doctor. I think she's got a lot cheekier since then. But yes, those eps do score bonus points for featuring the awesomeness that is River Song; certainly Moffat's greatest contribution to the Doctor Who universe.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Wow, that episode had "Naff" written through it like a stick of rock. It's almost like they were trying a bit of RTD humour and charm but didn't come close to pulling it off. I think Gareth Roberts was going for a Love & Monsters vibe but fell woefully short. Corden is no Peter Kay. Once again I see the Cybermen are relegated to the role of pantomime villains - to think I used to be scared of them as a kid (I was about 8 when I saw Earthshock - it gave me nightmares!)

Anyhow, at least next week's ep looks exciting. My only worry is there looks to be an awful lot going on and very little time to show everything. I'm kind of expecting it to suffer from RTD finale syndrome where everything bar the kitchen sink is thrown in to give proceedings an artificially 'epic' feel. We shall see.

Nice lists guys. Those 10th episodes are really strong aren't they. I reckon The Next Doctor is probably my favourite Chrimbo ep.

[Moon-Crane]

Average filler episode tonight. Didn't bother me too much, but felt more like a mid-season episode than a penultimate ep.

Still, looking forward to next week - even though i was a slightly alarmed by the appearance of so many characters in the montage. Like BS, I hope it isn't one of those RTD type 'throw everybody you've ever used into one episode' episodes.

[Cake for Brains]

Average filler episode tonight. Didn't bother me too much, but felt more like a mid-season episode than a penultimate ep.

Still, looking forward to next week - even though i was a slightly alarmed by the appearance of so many characters in the montage. Like BS, I hope it isn't one of those RTD type 'throw everybody you've ever used into one episode' episodes.

You both make it sound like RTD did that every year. He did it once!

[Mr Blue Sky]

Average filler episode tonight. Didn't bother me too much, but felt more like a mid-season episode than a penultimate ep.

Still, looking forward to next week - even though i was a slightly alarmed by the appearance of so many characters in the montage. Like BS, I hope it isn't one of those RTD type 'throw everybody you've ever used into one episode' episodes.

You both make it sound like RTD did that every year. He did it once!

I'm counting The End of Time as a finale too, of sorts, so twice. But his finales were always overblown affairs weren't they, Cybermen vs Daleks etc. I enjoyed it that way until he went OTT with Journey's End - definitely RTD's 'Jump the Shark' moment.

[Cake for Brains]

Average filler episode tonight. Didn't bother me too much, but felt more like a mid-season episode than a penultimate ep.

Still, looking forward to next week - even though i was a slightly alarmed by the appearance of so many characters in the montage. Like BS, I hope it isn't one of those RTD type 'throw everybody you've ever used into one episode' episodes.

You both make it sound like RTD did that every year. He did it once!

I'm counting The End of Time as a finale too, of sorts, so twice. But his finales were always overblown affairs weren't they, Cybermen vs Daleks etc. I enjoyed it that way until he went OTT with Journey's End - definitely RTD's 'Jump the Shark' moment.

Naaaah! The biggest reason you don't like Journey's Endis because RTD implied somebody would die and then nobody did! And I'd forgotten about The End of Time - though I wouldn't have had the regeneration sequence any other way, personally.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Naaaah! The biggest reason you don't like Journey's Endis because RTD implied somebody would die and then nobody did! And I'd forgotten about The End of Time - though I wouldn't have had the regeneration sequence any other way, personally.

Oh, that was certainly the biggest reason I disliked the ep, but it also happened to be an overblown shark-jumping mess

As for The End of Time, that was just pure self-indulgance on RTD's part.

[Cake for Brains]

Naaaah! The biggest reason you don't like Journey's Endis because RTD implied somebody would die and then nobody did! And I'd forgotten about The End of Time - though I wouldn't have had the regeneration sequence any other way, personally.

Oh, that was certainly the biggest reason I disliked the ep, but it also happened to be an overblown shark-jumping mess

As for The End of Time, that was just pure self-indulgance on RTD's part.

How it was it shark-jumping? You liked both The Next Doctor and The Waters of Mars and they came after Journey's End. And I don't think The End of Time was self-indulgent, but let's not go there. Not today. Maybe next week.

[Mr Blue Sky]

How it was it shark-jumping? You liked both The Next Doctor and The Waters of Mars and they came after Journey's End.

I've always thought RTD could knock out decent one-off specials and wish he could be persuaded to write again for the show, just an episode a season or something. That S4 finale was the culmination of RTD trying to top himself every year by building up to the big finish and cram everyone in and it was way too OTT. God knows what kind of mess we'd have had if he had another full season in charge, he'd probably be trying to persuade extras from the 1960s to put in an appearance for the big finish

And I don't think The End of Time was self-indulgent, but let's not go there. Not today. Maybe next week.

Oh it was, you know it

[Cake for Brains]

I've always thought RTD could knock out decent one-off specials and wish he could be persuaded to write again for the show, just an episode a season or something. That S4 finale was the culmination of RTD trying to top himself every year by building up to the big finish and it was way too OTT. God knows what kind of mess we'd have had if he had another full season in charge, he'd probably be trying to persuage extras from the 1960s to put in an appearance for the big finish

We'll never know. The original idea for David Tennant's final episode (detailed in RTD's book) was just going to be a single episode story with a family in danger on a ship or something. Something small, intimate and character-based. Of course, we ended up with The Master, Time Lords, Gallifrey, Wilf, Donna and Christmas instead, but still!

Oh, it was. You know it.

I was to busy crying to notice, clearly. The End of Time is far from perfect, but that I wouldn't chance a second of that regeneration sequence. I think it's beautiful - at once sad and a celebration of Tennant's era.

[Cake for Brains]

Really good episode to go out on for DT and RTD. Did anyone actually remain dry-eyed when he said "I don't want to go"? I was worried the final 20 minutes were going to seem incredibly self-indulgent but fortunately it didn't have that feel at all, more like a 'celebration', as you've mentioned. I think when I watch the ep again without all the emotion the 'reset glove' will seem a tad contrived, although that was a brilliant scene when the Doctor apparently had to choose to shoot either the Master or the Time Lord President.

Very difficult to comment on Matt Smith so soon, so I won't bother. I'll nip off and watch that S5 trailer now!

Look what I found! (Oh no, sorry, that's the sex face)

[Mr Blue Sky]

Heh, proof that the most unreliable reviews are the ones written straight afterwards. With time comes perspective

[Moon-Crane]

I guess the self indulgent, kitchen sink, finale has become associated with RTD in my mind because of The Master story ending, and especially the closure to DT's run. It's maybe not exactly fair to his general running of the show, but it's simply the perception i was left with; much in the same way that 'jumping the shark' has become associated with any shows that hit the tipping point to become shit - even though there were good seasons and great episodes in the six-and-a-half years that Happy Days ran after that particular shark-jumping episode in S5

I wouldn't change it, though. Nothing wrong with being overblown and bombastic in an essentially camp-ish sci-fi romp.

[Paul B]

Well, that has to have been the maddest episode of Doctor Who yet - and I have to say, I loved every minute of it. It was a fabulous cavalcade of everything I love about the show. Everything came together in ways far better than I could've hoped.

Random stuff I loved -
The pure madness of the "time all at once" concept
Live Chess
"Scones and texts"
Amy's bad-assery with Korvarian
The sweet tribute to Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart
Winston Churchill talking about downloads
The Silence (Silents?) are still awesome
The fact that they successfully managed to work Rory's constant deaths into the narrative

One criticism: the way the Doctor escaped his death was predictable, but admittedly oddly satisfying. Though it didn't tarnish my enjoyment of the episode, nor this insane season as a whole.

This was undoubtedly the best season finale, and I'm really looking forward to seeing where the show's headed next.

[Cake for Brains]

I enjoyed it and I agree with all the highlights you mentioned, but as a season finale, it just wasn't that exciting. There wasn't really much of a build-up or any sense of a climax or any real threat - which is a problem I had with The Big Bang. Maybe I just prefer the balls-out RTD action finales. I'm a bit sick of all the reunions all the characters keep having though - it's actually happened in every Moffat episode this series.

That said though, it was clever and I certainly can't accuse Moffat of not being ambitious with his storytelling. There was so many good ideas packed into this episode (the pre-credits sequence was especially brilliant) and River is literally the best character on television.

Episode 13 -
The Parting of the Ways 10/10
Doomsday 9/10
Journey's End 9/10
The Wedding of River Song 8/10
Last of the Time Lords 8/10
The Big Bang 5/10

Might try and put together a top 10 episodes list.

I've really enjoyed Series 6 though (and Amy Pond) - not up there with RTD's tenure, but much better than last year's series.

[Cake for Brains]

My favourite episodes -

1. Human Nature/The Family of Blood
2. Love & Monsters
3. Midnight
4. Turn Left
5. Gridlock
6. Bad Wolf/The Parting ofthe Ways
7. Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords
8. The Christmas Invasion
9. Smith and Jones
10. The Waters of Mars
11. The Stolen Earth/Journey's End
12. A Good Man Goes to War
13. Boom Town
14. The Doctor's Wife
15. Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
16. The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
17. The Girl in the Fireplace
18. The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
18. The End of Time
19. Father's Day
20. The End of the World

[Paul B]

I really enjoyed a different sort of finale - not everything has to follow the same generic Doctor-vanquishes-aliens formula. And I'd say the possibility of a world without the Doctor is enough of a threat!

"A Good Man Goes to War" already filled the role of a finale well enough, besides. Another one would've been overkill. I thought this worked well as a classy "coda" to the series, almost like an end of an era. Already I'm intrigued by the concept of the next series, now that the Doctor is no longer universally renown.

[Cake for Brains]

I think I need to watch it again. I think if I had to pick a word to describe the finale it would be 'strange'. I liked it well enough, but I can't bring myself to feel completely satisifed. How many times must all the characters "die", forget each other, reunite in epic, funny timey-wimey ways... I think it's getting a bit old. I'd quite like a generic Doctor-vanquishes-aliens episode, because when was the last time we got a really good one of those, a good romp, if you will?