Frasier Online

Does anyone else despise Mel?

I know we are supposed to dislike her to add fuel to the fire that is Daphne and Niles, but they honestly couldn't have written a less sympathetic character. She makes me want to rip my hair out.

Thoughts?

I don't like her either, but then she is basically a clone of Maris, but not quite as bad.

Well, Mel as later Julia, managed to get everyone to hate them at first sight except for Niles for the former and Frasier ( although in the end he jumped vigorously on the bandwagon) for the latter and that's a clear indicator that we too are supposed to hate them.

I mean even in those rare times when she tries to do a good thing she does it so clumsily ( mostly because of a lack of practice) that it's not usually well received. Like when Mel says to Niles "You'll have a lifetime to make it up to me." Ouch! What a way to talk!

Mel did run on a little long (which was her point I guess)

One of my favorite side characters though is the guy from records moving Maris' files, who Niles first mistakes as Mel.

"Dr. Karnofsky's so young! She must have had [her son] when she was a child"

"Okay."

Tranquilox wrote:I don't like her either, but then she is basically a clone of Maris, but not quite as bad.

I stand by my earlier statement that Mel is nothing but a female version of early season Niles :

Small, pretty, vain, intelligent, successful, sophisticated, snobby, priggish, compulsive-obsessive, prissy, picky, condescending and arrogant

(and for this reason I don't like it when people find it funny and normal when Niles and Frasier treat Daphne as a servant (sipping wine on the sofa, expecting a working Daphne to come from other side of the room to open the door "That's what she does!?!"), but find the same behaviour outrageous in Mel... )

Tranquilox wrote:I don't like her either, but then she is basically a clone of Maris, but not quite as bad.

Yeah, I can't really imagine Mel doing half the insane stuff Maris did. And she seemed to genuinely care for Niles, especially after her speech while Daphne was giving her a massage in To Thine Old Self Be True, which is why I really felt sorry for her when Niles ran off with Daphne... But then she became insufferable again and I remembered why I couldn't stand her .

Eddie2012 wrote:

Tranquilox wrote:I don't like her either, but then she is basically a clone of Maris, but not quite as bad.

I stand by my earlier statement that Mel is nothing but a female version of early season Niles :

Small, pretty, vain, intelligent, successful, sophisticated, snobby, priggish, compulsive-obsessive, prissy, picky, condescending and arrogant

(and for this reason I don't like it when people find it funny and normal when Niles and Frasier treat Daphne as a servant (sipping wine on the sofa, expecting a working Daphne to come from other side of the room to open the door "That's what she does!?!"), but find the same behaviour outrageous in Mel... )

Plus Niles on a few occasions acts toward Daphne like a smarmy letch much more interested in seeing her naked than to defend her as a person he loves and respects(I am thinking for example of the time when they're locked out on the balcony and Niles pushes back the cell phone he was about to use when he sees Daphne's about to remove her synthetic clothes rendered unbearable by the scorching sun of the 4th of July, he doesn't care a rat's ass that she will be humiliated in the process).
You're right about Mel being closer as a character to Niles than any other person on the show. In fact she's more like Niles would be if he were dominant instead of dominated most of the time.

Mel is a sweetheart compared to daphne's mother .

Mel is an interesting character in a lot of respects. On one hand, it's flagrantly clear that she is purposefully made to be cruel, villainous, and unlikeable, so that the audience is solidly behind Daphne/Niles once they inevitably united -- they don't want to portray her as a victim or confuse things; it makes sense to do this. And although she is clearly a repetition of Maris (a domineering and shoddy woman who everyone is able to immediately detect except for Niles who idealizes her) before Niles can finally conquer that tendency to be dominated by women in his life before he moves onto Daphne, she isn't nearly as awful as Maris, and she does seem to care and sincerely love Niles, as seen in her touching confession to Daphne during the massage (which ironically endears Niles to Daphne). She also has a bit of the early Niles in her, though it is somewhat exaggerated. At its core, the Mel saga is there so that Niles can finally conquer the pattern of domination and illusionary idealization, and parts of his old vain snobbery so that he can finally be down-to-earth enough that he can be with someone like Daphne. Mel does the trick on all those things.

Jane Adams is hot!

Season 7 Mel was interesting for some of the things people mentioned. She was fussy and arrogant, but truly seemed to care for Niles. It made her a bit tragic.

Season 8 Mel... I'm apathetic. If a character has zero redeeming traits, I have trouble taking them seriously, or really caring about them. To me, Season 8 Mel was just a prop there to create drama.

I feel like that was the point though. they made her so annoying and unlikable that when niles ditched her for another woman a few days into their marriage, no one would feel bad about it. but it's not like she was an abusive horrible person he escaped from. she was actually a lot like early season niles!

frasier floyd wrote:I feel like that was the point though. they made her so annoying and unlikable that when niles ditched her for another woman a few days into their marriage, no one would feel bad about it. but it's not like she was an abusive horrible person he escaped from. she was actually a lot like early season niles!

I agree but the early Niles is a detestable individual, he gets more likable as the years go by and that's why he doesn't need a Nell that will set him back a few years.

frasier floyd wrote:I feel like that was the point though. they made her so annoying and unlikable that when niles ditched her for another woman a few days into their marriage, no one would feel bad about it. but it's not like she was an abusive horrible person he escaped from. she was actually a lot like early season niles!

I still felt sorry for her when he dumped her, no less than for Donny. And after she was dumped in such a terrible way, I felt she sort of even had the right to be a little vindictive, but then I guess you're right, the writers wanted us not to feel bad, so they went over the top with her.

yea they at least gave mel and niles a tender moment during their fake wedding reception while discussing their honeymoon plans- when niles commented how nice their plan sounded and mel remarked that it wasn't her fault they weren't going. even if she wasn't too likable, we know she did really care about niles, so i agree that it is still somewhat sad.

i guess they did the same thing for donnie, who was probably more liked than mel since he was a friendly guy. they made him into a bad guy by having him sue daphne/frasier.

I don't think she's so bad given the type of person she is. She certainly knows how to alienate people and treat them with disrespect, but she seems totally innocent about it. And she seems very compatible with Niles on the OCD scale! And Niles does seem to enjoy her company even if he has his secret passion burning for Daphne.

heartofmotion wrote:I don't think she's so bad given the type of person she is. She certainly knows how to alienate people and treat them with disrespect, but she seems totally innocent about it. And she seems very compatible with Niles on the OCD scale! And Niles does seem to enjoy her company even if he has his secret passion burning for Daphne.

Yeah, I realy didn't like the way Mel treated Daphne when she was completely oblivious to the fact that Daphne had a headache and made Daphne give her a massage anyway.
On the other hand, in Whine Club, Frasier is angry at Mel for pushing Niles to run for cork master, but I don't think it was her fault. What she said to Niles was true, that he lets people push him around because he has little self-confidence, and she only suggested Niles should run for cork master. The fact that Niles actually won certainly isn't her fault.
Then again, in The Fight Before Christmas, she does show herself to be terribly jealous. Yes, it's suspicious that Niles had lunch with Maris without telling her, but I still think she overreacted.

So, all in all, I think she was a big improvement compared to Maris, and I do think she was mistreated by the writers after the breakup, but she definitely has some flaws. Still, the more I watch Frasier, the less Daphne and Niles seem believable to me, so I think Mel and Niles make a much more realistic (and better suited) couple.

On the other hand, in Whine Club, Frasier is angry at Mel for pushing Niles to run for cork master, but I don't think it was her fault. What she said to Niles was true, that he lets people push him around because he has little self-confidence, and she only suggested Niles should run for cork master. The fact that Niles actually won certainly isn't her fault.
Still, the more I watch Frasier, the less Daphne and Niles seem believable to me, so I think Mel and Niles make a much more realistic (and better suited) couple.

Yes, I totally agree with these points. She's definitely on Niles' side - and in the cork master episode was probably completely unaware that she was fanning the flames of intense sibling rivalry!

I actually think the Crane family are unnecessarily unpleasant in their reaction to Mel. She's imperious but not malicious. And she ends up thanking Daphne for her time and praising her massage skills. The Crane family's dislike of her just seems like a plot device to me. And there are times when she and Niles seem a perfect couple - when they are synchronising their watches for example!

I thought Niles/Daphne worked well until they got together but as a couple they often don't seem natural together. And I find it impossible to believe they could be a couple as they have nothing in common at all.

frasier floyd wrote:I feel like that was the point though. they made her so annoying and unlikable that when niles ditched her for another woman a few days into their marriage, no one would feel bad about it.

I agree with ya, I'm certain that was the point, but that's why it doesn't do anything for me. It just strikes me as really hollow, so for me Season 8 Mel summons no emotions. It's like, "Well, okay, so Niles did something pretty awful, but... uh, hey, she's a completely unlikable jerk with no redeeming qualities by this point, so go ahead and enjoy it!"

It's just me overthinking it, I know.

ShinChuck wrote:

frasier floyd wrote:I feel like that was the point though. they made her so annoying and unlikable that when niles ditched her for another woman a few days into their marriage, no one would feel bad about it.

I agree with ya, I'm certain that was the point, but that's why it doesn't do anything for me. It just strikes me as really hollow, so for me Season 8 Mel summons no emotions. It's like, "Well, okay, so Niles did something pretty awful, but... uh, hey, she's a completely unlikable jerk with no redeeming qualities by this point, so go ahead and enjoy it!"

It's just me overthinking it, I know.

I agree, I didn't feel sorry for Mel, not even slightly. IMO, she was a manipulative bitch and had little regard for other people, so she deserved whatever she got, hopefully things that would teach her a lesson. I mean if she gets hit enough times maybe at some point she will ask herself "What am I doing wrong here?"