Self-Parody in the Later Seasons

[hansenkd]

One reason I'm kind of fond of the later seasons generally is the element of conscious self-parody that was often introduced, sort of harking to the earlier days of the show while being wonderfully self-aware of how much things had changed.

The most obvious one is the opening scene (sadly cut in all on-air reruns but available on the DVD and Netflix) of Daphne Does Dinner.

Another one that must be meant as parody is the thing with Daphne and the show rats in Deathtrap. As has been discussed in the last few days in several threads, with widely differing viewpoints on why this happened or whether it was a postitive and natural thing, Daphne's personality started to change drastically around Season 6 or so. By Season 7, she was completely different from the lovable eccentric of the early seasons. It's been said that this was probably unavoidable after living with the Cranes for so long. After she got together with Niles, there were some kooky moments, but she was flat-out "normal" during S9. And the show rats thing just came out of left field. And NILES, who now had her, made note of how odd it was--something he NEVER did when she would tell a batty story in the early seasons. Frasier would often make a quip, but Niles would silently "admire." Makes sense, I guess, but that just had to be meant as self-parody, since people were already complaining about how Daphne had changed. I really like the later-season Daphne--I realize that this makes me an outlier. Even Jane's delivery of the "show rats" speech seemed somewhat false--as if she were saying "come on guys, this isn't who she is anymore"--unless it was in fact parody.

I also think that "Frasier-Lite" is a big parody of the earlier KACL hijinks episodes.

[Emil]

Obviously, there is Nanny G's line in "Caught in the act":
"But nothing ever changes! Do you have any idea what it's like to play the same character for twenty years?"
Priceless.

[Patrick]

After season 6, there are only two episodes where she talks about her psychic powers.

8-19 where Niles tells her that he doesn't believe she is psychic, to prove to her that he doesn't see her as perfect.

8-20 where they bring a "specialist" to prove or disprove the reality of these powers.

other than that, there isn't a single reference to her psychic powers from season 7 to season 11.

[Patrick]

Obviously, there is Nanny G's line in "Caught in the act":
"But nothing ever changes! Do you have any idea what it's like to play the same character for twenty years?"
Priceless.

Yes and rumor has it that they couldn't keep it a secret and that some people in the audience already knew that there would be an allusion during the show to KG 20 year role.

[Frasiertime]

The Tango dance in Rivals-S7 and Moondance-S3 is another.

[Patrick]

The Tango dance in Rivals-S7 and Moondance-S3 is another.

I am not sure if that qualifies as a self-parody. In both cases there's dancing but otherwise the stories are completely unrelated.

[tgirl]

After season 6, there are only two episodes where she talks about her psychic powers.

8-19 where Niles tells her that he doesn't believe she is psychic, to prove to her that he doesn't see her as perfect.

8-20 where they bring a "specialist" to prove or disprove the reality of these powers.

other than that, there isn't a single reference to her psychic powers from season 7 to season 11.

I noticed that as a big loss to the character of Daphne. I loved how her facial expressions looked as if she didn't quite believe she was psychic but just went along with the Moon women tradition for comic purposes. All the moon women are supposed to have some psychic ability, though god knows Gertrude didn't say anything about being psychic. I think that Daphne should have bought up her psychic abilities again in season 9 when her mum visited, I'd have loved to hear what Gertrude would have said about it.

[Forever Jung]

All the moon women are supposed to have some psychic ability, though god knows Gertrude didn't say anything about being psychic. I think that Daphne should have bought up her psychic abilities again in season 9 when her mum visited, I'd have loved to hear what Gertrude would have said about it.

I think that's an interesting idea.
I don't know if this has got legs to walk very far without getting very old very fast, but it might have been funny if Gertrude knew the ledgends of the phycic abilities of the Moon women and, unlike Daphne (who believed she really was phycic) Gert used her supposed phycic powers as a way to con people, or as an elaberate excuse for her behaviour. "I'm sorry I nicked your bottle of Whiskey, the spirits told me to do it" (no pun intended ).

Of course, it's the Moon women that are phycic, and Gertrude married a Moon rather than was born a Moon, so the whole thing sort of falls apart right there

[Patrick]

...
Of course, it's the Moon women that are phycic, and Gertrude married a Moon rather than was born a Moon, so the whole thing sort of falls apart right there

You took the words right out of my mouth. I wanted to say something earlier but I was afraid that if I did I'd end up being branded as the one who antagonizes people. Gertrude was only a Moon by marriage... enough said.


Besides, the whole thing about "Moon women" doesn't make any sense... If a so called "Moon woman" has children these children will have a different name from hers and therefore won't Identify themselves as moon women (if they are female), if a woman in the Moon family has children she won't be referring to HERSELF as a Moon woman to begin with. So you see this whole Daphne remark was just stupid from the word go and the writers never thought it through.


So to sum things up:

Born Moon woman ---> doesn't have Moon children

A woman has Moon children ---> She isn't a Moon woman by birth.

The only way Daphne's remark could work is if there was some inbreeding involved which considering how her brothers turned out to be wouldn't be so surprising...

[CatNamedRudy]

...
Of course, it's the Moon women that are phycic, and Gertrude married a Moon rather than was born a Moon, so the whole thing sort of falls apart right there

You took the words right out of my mouth. I wanted to say something earlier but I was afraid that if I did I'd end up being branded as the one who antagonizes people. Gertrude was only a Moon by marriage... enough said.


Besides, the whole thing about "Moon women" doesn't make any sense... If a so called "Moon woman" has children these children will have a different name from hers and therefore won't Identify themselves as moon women (if they are female), if a woman in the Moon family has children she won't be referring to HERSELF as a Moon woman to begin with. So you see this whole Daphne remark was just stupid from the word go and the writers never thought it through.


So to sum things up:

Born Moon woman ---> doesn't have Moon children

A woman has Moon children ---> She isn't a Moon woman by birth.

The only way Daphne's remark could work is if there was some inbreeding involved which considering how her brothers turned out to be wouldn't be so surprising...

That's not true. I still recognize my maternal "blood." Though my last name is not that of my mother's, I will on occasion say things like "my Fisher blood" or "it's the "Fisher" woman in me."

[Patrick]

...
Of course, it's the Moon women that are phycic, and Gertrude married a Moon rather than was born a Moon, so the whole thing sort of falls apart right there

You took the words right out of my mouth. I wanted to say something earlier but I was afraid that if I did I'd end up being branded as the one who antagonizes people. Gertrude was only a Moon by marriage... enough said.


Besides, the whole thing about "Moon women" doesn't make any sense... If a so called "Moon woman" has children these children will have a different name from hers and therefore won't Identify themselves as moon women (if they are female), if a woman in the Moon family has children she won't be referring to HERSELF as a Moon woman to begin with. So you see this whole Daphne remark was just stupid from the word go and the writers never thought it through.


So to sum things up:

Born Moon woman ---> doesn't have Moon children

A woman has Moon children ---> She isn't a Moon woman by birth.

The only way Daphne's remark could work is if there was some inbreeding involved which considering how her brothers turned out to be wouldn't be so surprising...

That's not true. I still recognize my maternal "blood." Though my last name is not that of my mother's, I will on occasion say things like "my Fisher blood" or "it's the "Fisher" woman in me."

Was your mother's maiden name Fisher? if so then it's not relevant to the point I am making; if not then how can you talk about "Fisher blood" when your mother doesn't have any in her? At any rate you're not proving me wrong with your example, you're just proving that you have yet to understand me on that. Daphne never talked about the Smith women or the Brown women or whatever her mother's maiden name could have been. She specifically talked about the "Moon" women, which could have been her mother's maiden name only by an extraordinary coincidence or by her father marrying a relative, hence my remark about inbreeding.

Get it yet?

[CatNamedRudy]

My mother's maiden name was Fisher and so I don't understand then why you would say that Daphne's children would not be "Moon" women. Daphne is a Moon so her children would be Moon women. They would in fact be Moon-Crane women!

I'm not talking about Daphne's mother being a Moon. I completely understand that part of the equation. What I don't understand is why you think that Daphne's children would not be Moon women since Daphne herself is Moon woman. Just because she's married and has a different last name doesn't mean she is no longer a Moon.

[Patrick]

My mother's maiden name was Fisher and so I don't understand then why you would say that Daphne's children would not be "Moon" women. Daphne is a Moon so her children would be Moon women. They would in fact be Moon-Crane women! ...

Daphne is a Moon by her FATHER!! not her MOTHER!! Do you get that? If HER daughter(s) referred to themselves the same way she does to herself then they would say that they are CRANE women not MOON women. Darn, you are slow!!! I'd have better luck explaining these simple notions to Eddie (aka Moose) than to you!

[welshben23]

My mother's maiden name was Fisher and so I don't understand then why you would say that Daphne's children would not be "Moon" women. Daphne is a Moon so her children would be Moon women. They would in fact be Moon-Crane women! ...

Daphne is a Moon by her FATHER!! not her MOTHER!! Do you get that? If HER daughter(s) referred to themselves the same way she does to herself then they would say that they are CRANE women not MOON women. Darn, you are slow!!! I'd have better luck explaining these simple notions to Eddie (aka Moose) than to you!

Oh yeah, you're going to go far on this forum.

[CatNamedRudy]

Yes I understand that as I already explained. I shall refrain from calling you names as I am not so rude and nasty to you. What I'm saying is that despite the fact that Daphne's daughters (if she were to have them) have a different last name they are still part Moon and they could indeed refer to themselves as Moon women. I'm done with this conversation if you cannot understand what I am saying. I'm not the one that doesn't get it.

[Patrick]

Yes I understand that as I already explained. I shall refrain from calling you names as I am not so rude and nasty to you. What I'm saying is that despite the fact that Daphne's daughters (if she were to have them) have a different last name they are still part Moon and they could indeed refer to themselves as Moon women. I'm done with this conversation if you cannot understand what I am saying. I'm not the one that doesn't get it.

You don't understand a thing and I am done explaining anything to you. I said everything you needed to know in order to put the pieces together but you just don't have the mental glue to do it. Plus I never called you names, you just made that up out of thin air as you do with so many other things. I will not feed your delusions any longer on that subject either. Have a nice day.

[Patrick]

...
Oh yeah, you're going to go far on this forum.

And wouldn't that be a shame with so many enlightened conversations going around...

[Eddie2012]

Of course, it's the Moon women that are phycic, and Gertrude married a Moon rather than was born a Moon, so the whole thing sort of falls apart right there

So:

1. The 'psychic powers' are only passed on to females, starting with a blood-Moon-woman; in this case Daphne could not possess these powers as she is 'only' a Moon on her father's side. The name is passed on, but not the powers. Daphne can refer to herself as a Moon-woman by name in general as long as she does not refer to her psychic powers.

Or

- The 'psychic powers' are passed to both sexes, but only come out in the female Moons; in this case Daphne would possess these powers as she is a Moon on her father's side, who himself would not possess these powers, but pass them on. The name might change, but the powers are passed on. Daphne can refer to herself as a Moon-woman or part-Moon-woman with regards to her powers forever (and her name in general as well until she takes a new name).

[Patrick]

Of course, it's the Moon women that are phycic, and Gertrude married a Moon rather than was born a Moon, so the whole thing sort of falls apart right there

So:

1. The 'psychic powers' are only passed on to females, starting with a blood-Moon-woman; in this case Daphne could not possess these powers as she is 'only' a Moon on her father's side. The name is passed on, but not the powers. Daphne can refer to herself as a Moon-woman by name in general as long as she does not refer to her psychic powers.

Or

- The 'psychic powers' are passed to both sexes, but only come out in the female Moons; in this case Daphne would possess these powers as she is a Moon on her father's side, who himself would not possess these powers, but pass them on. The name might change, but the powers are passed on. Daphne can refer to herself as a Moon-woman or part-Moon-woman with regards to her powers forever (and her name in general as well until she takes a new name).

These powers seem to act like some sort of recessive gene, in a manner of speaking of course, unless there's actual inbreeding involved. Anyway, any direct female ancestor of Daphne would not have it as she would only be a Moon by marriage and not by blood and that's where the whole house of cards falls apart, like dead leaves before a gusty wind....

[CatNamedRudy]

Yes I understand that as I already explained. I shall refrain from calling you names as I am not so rude and nasty to you. What I'm saying is that despite the fact that Daphne's daughters (if she were to have them) have a different last name they are still part Moon and they could indeed refer to themselves as Moon women. I'm done with this conversation if you cannot understand what I am saying. I'm not the one that doesn't get it.

You don't understand a thing and I am done explaining anything to you. I said everything you needed to know in order to put the pieces together but you just don't have the mental glue to do it. Plus I never called you names, you just made that up out of thin air as you do with so many other things. I will not feed your delusions any longer on that subject either. Have a nice day.

Yeah, this: "Darn, you are slow!!! I'd have better luck explaining these simple notions to Eddie (aka Moose) than to you!" isn't calling me names?

It's a shame you have to be so damn nasty all the time. On occasion you actually have some interesting things to say.

[Patrick]

Yes I understand that as I already explained. I shall refrain from calling you names as I am not so rude and nasty to you. What I'm saying is that despite the fact that Daphne's daughters (if she were to have them) have a different last name they are still part Moon and they could indeed refer to themselves as Moon women. I'm done with this conversation if you cannot understand what I am saying. I'm not the one that doesn't get it.

You don't understand a thing and I am done explaining anything to you. I said everything you needed to know in order to put the pieces together but you just don't have the mental glue to do it. Plus I never called you names, you just made that up out of thin air as you do with so many other things. I will not feed your delusions any longer on that subject either. Have a nice day.

Yeah, this: "Darn, you are slow!!! I'd have better luck explaining these simple notions to Eddie (aka Moose) than to you!" isn't calling me names?

It's a shame you have to be so damn nasty all the time. On occasion you actually have some interesting things to say.

Ok, that was out of line but you where a bit too smug and condescending yourself, not to mention oblivious to essential parts of my explanation which is where the rub is.

[CatNamedRudy]

Let me ask you this: Are you under the impression that I think Daphne's psychic powers came from Gertrude? Because if that's where the rub is, I don't think that. I get that her "Moon" psychic ability is a paternal thing.

My issue was that in one of your posts (the one I initially quoted) you stated that once a woman has female children that those children don't identify with their mother's family name. I disagree with that. I don't think a female child loses her ability to identify with her maternal family. That was why I used my mother's maiden name as an example in stating that I will still identify with my mother's side of the family.

[Patrick]

Let me ask you this: Are you under the impression that I think Daphne's psychic powers came from Gertrude? Because if that's where the rub is, I don't think that. I get that her "Moon" psychic ability is a paternal thing.

My issue was that in one of your posts (the one I initially quoted) you stated that once a woman has female children that those children don't identify with their mother's family name. I disagree with that. I don't think a female child loses her ability to identify with her maternal family. That was why I used my mother's maiden name as an example in stating that I will still identify with my mother's side of the family.

Do you also use your grand-mother's maiden name? Because that's where the story, I am speaking of the one told by Daphne, takes a ridiculous turn. Daphne said that it was Grammy Moon who told her so. But there's no way that Grammy Moon could be a Moon by birth herself, so how would she know? You see my point this time? Daphne's story doesn't make any sense.

[CatNamedRudy]

I never took the story that far and didn't really pay all that much attention to the genealogy of it. I understand where Daphne is coming from though because to her her Grammy Moon is a "Moon" woman since she's always known her as a Moon. I refer to my grandmother as a Fisher woman but really, that's her married name so she's really not.

The one thing about Daphne's psychic powers that I would have liked is for them to have shown up more in the later seasons. They were fun!

[Patrick]

I never took the story that far and didn't really pay all that much attention to the genealogy of it. I understand where Daphne is coming from though because to her her Grammy Moon is a "Moon" woman since she's always known her as a Moon. I refer to my grandmother as a Fisher woman but really, that's her married name so she's really not.

The one thing about Daphne's psychic powers that I would have liked is for them to have shown up more in the later seasons. They were fun!

The thing is that Grammy Moon knew that she wasn't a Moon and therefore wouldn't have said anything about the Moon women since she wasn't even one. Why do you have to be so difficult? The story doesn't make any sense. It was concocted by some writer that never thought it through.

Most Daphne's stories don't make sense after some examination by the way. Like her father, he was a bar fly that would get punched for a living. How could he afford anything more than a homeless lifestyle? Let alone 9 YEARS OF PIANO lessons for Daphne? Her mother seems unable to do anything more than a basic kind of work and can't even do that well either, So where the HELL did the money come from for her house in Manchester for example that she seems totally unconcerned about?

As for Daphne's brothers, the less said about them, the better...