Frasier Online
home About The Show Episode Guide Merchandise Forum Reviews Gallery Contact

Martin Crane

Discussion of all things 'Frasier' - the episodes, the actors and other 'Frasier'-related topics.

Martin Crane

Postby Castalia » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:37 pm

Hello there,

I've started to watch Frasier again after a few years and I remember the problem I had with it before - Martin Crane. I acknowledge that I have only watched the first three episodes today but I did manage to watch the first three seasons the first time around and I did not particularly like Martin's character. It is excellent for comedic situations - and I do thoroughly enjoy the programme - but I get the sense that the writers want us to side with Martin because he's "down-to-earth" - an assessment I've heard other people make of his character - while chiding Frasier and Niles' rarefied "pretensions". But there's nothing particularly sympathetic about him at all, even when Frasier and Niles were being snobbish about the restaurant - although I too would have reservations about a restaurant that cut my tie without asking. Although I would say that the way Martin dismisses Frasier and Niles' interests comes across as snobbery too. The father and the children are more alike than they imagine.

John Mahoney is an excellent actor and portrays him very well but I do not think the character is "down-to-earth" or "relaxed" in any way, unlike Daphne. Martin's character comes across as childish and self-important, particularly in the first three episodes (such as the scene where Frasier tries to have a conversation with him, he says "You said cold TWICE!" like an infant schoolgirl and another where Martin says "I said thank you!" in a similarly petulant way, as if Frasier was being unreasonable in making the request in the first place). Frasier is certainly more likeable, so far.

As I go through the episodes again, I will see if my memory of his character was a little shaky. I hope that someone more knowledgable of the writers' intentions could shed some light on aspects of Martin's character that I may have missed.
Castalia
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:09 pm

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Eddie2012 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Castalia wrote:Although I would say that the way Martin dismisses Frasier and Niles' interests comes across as snobbery too. The father and the children are more alike than they imagine.

That is why I am always a little irritated at the ‘outrage’ at drunken Niles’ behaviour towards his dad in Room Full of Heroes.
Martins put-downs are very frequent, he is always telling them how sports or a stint in the army would have done them a world of good, how his late wife had to pick him up about it ("So what if the trophy says baking instead of baseball, Marty? Catchers' mitts or oven mitts, they're our little champions.” From IQ). Telling Frasier in Back Talk that he doesn’t trust doctors, then correcting himself by saying that this didn’t include Frasier as he meant real doctors, etc, etc, etc.

All said in good humour and for comedy sake, obviously, and while I don’t doubt Martin loves his boys to bits, those constant put-downs might over time hurt a more sensitive person like Niles a lot. If you constantly make light of your son’s life choices, then why are you surprised when they start to think of themselves as disappointments to you? :bounce:
User avatar
Eddie2012
 
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Patrick » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:59 pm

Eddie2012 wrote:
Castalia wrote:Although I would say that the way Martin dismisses Frasier and Niles' interests comes across as snobbery too. The father and the children are more alike than they imagine.

That is why I am always a little irritated at the ‘outrage’ at drunken Niles’ behaviour towards his dad in Room Full of Heroes.
Martins put-downs are very frequent, he is always telling them how sports or a stint in the army would have done them a world of good, how his late wife had to pick him up about it ("So what if the trophy says baking instead of baseball, Marty? Catchers' mitts or oven mitts, they're our little champions.” From IQ). Telling Frasier in Back Talk that he doesn’t trust doctors, then correcting himself by saying that this didn’t include Frasier as he meant real doctors, etc, etc, etc.

All said in good humour and for comedy sake, obviously, and while I don’t doubt Martin loves his boys to bits, those constant put-downs might over time hurt a more sensitive person like Niles a lot. If you constantly make light of your son’s life choices, then why are you surprised when they start to think of themselves as disappointments to you? :bounce:

Well, Martin has a much better understanding of people in general and of the realities of life than either of his children. Like for example when he was at the sport's bar with Niles and Frasier after Niles scored that lucky shot from mid-court. You can see it in his eyes that he knew that Niles wasn't savvy enough to keep things "theoretical" and not make a complete ass of himself by trying to use the basket machine.
Frasier: You started us down that path of insanity. Golda Meir.
Golda My-ass!
User avatar
Patrick
 
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:43 am
Location: France

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Forever Jung » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:28 pm

:twisted: The show started with Frasier going home to Seattle, and I dare say that there wouldn't be much comedy in a smooth transition.
They needed a foil. Someone placed close to Frasier who was in a position to rub him up the wrong way. Makes things more difficult.

Frasier had once told someone at Cheers(was it Sam or Woody?) that Martin was dead, which is not the kind of thing you'd say if you got on well with him.

Martin could be petulant at times, stubborn to the point of being childish, but so can most of the people.
He can be over critical at times, but perhaps he doesn't realize it. I think most of us would not recognize ourself through anothers eyes.

I remember watching an interview with the dude who played Joseph Goebbels in Der Untergang, and he said he didn't play Goebbels as an evil man, because Goebbels didn't see himself as an evil man.
Nobody looks at themselves as being evil, and likewise I don't think many people see themselves as being too critical, too sarcastic, too righteous.
Except for the few assholes of the world who do it on purpose because they revel in being assholes :lol:

The chacacter mellowed quick quickly (thank god) because the writters knew (correctly) that if he was going to be in the show long time the viewers would have to take to him. I don't know about you folks, but if I don't like a character it makes it so much harder to like a show.
It might be OK to introduce unlikeable characters. Ann the insurance lady is top of my list, but there's also Simon and Gertrude Moon, but none of these characters are regular to every show. Their dislikable attributes can only affect our enjoyment of the program so much.

The character developed because he had too to run the course. Martin was multi dementional because real people are multi dimentional. You may be able to attribute a characteristic to a character, but you can't make them that one thing all the time and never have them do anything different.
I don't like the show Seinfeld (because from the short clips i've seen, I dont see anybody I find likable) and haven't seen much of it, but from what i've seen of the character Krammer he is always crazy and shouting at the top of his voice.

That can't stay funny for long, surely?

So I personally think they did a good job in bringing in Martin to be an obsticle to Frasier, and then developed him so that he fit into the show.
The Cranes of Maine have got my Living Brain
User avatar
Forever Jung
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Somewhere with scrambled egg all over my face

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Emil » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:37 pm

That's interesting Castalia, I never thought about Martin that way! I always saw him as the good-natured, righteous old man who provides a reality check for the more intellectual Crane brothers. But what you say makes a lot of sense - I know that next time I watch a Frasier episode I will be viewing it with slightly different eyes!
User avatar
Emil
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:36 pm

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Patrick » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:47 pm

Forever Jung wrote::twisted: The show started with Frasier going home to Seattle, and I dare say that there wouldn't be much comedy in a smooth transition.
They needed a foil. Someone placed close to Frasier who was in a position to rub him up the wrong way. Makes things more difficult.

Frasier had once told someone at Cheers(was it Sam or Woody?) that Martin was dead, which is not the kind of thing you'd say if you got on well with him.

Martin could be petulant at times, stubborn to the point of being childish, but so can most of the people.
He can be over critical at times, but perhaps he doesn't realize it. I think most of us would not recognize ourself through anothers eyes.

I remember watching an interview with the dude who played Joseph Goebbels in Der Untergang, and he said he didn't play Goebbels as an evil man, because Goebbels didn't see himself as an evil man.
Nobody looks at themselves as being evil, and likewise I don't think many people see themselves as being too critical, too sarcastic, too righteous.
Except for the few assholes of the world who do it on purpose because they revel in being assholes :lol:

The chacacter mellowed quick quickly (thank god) because the writters knew (correctly) that if he was going to be in the show long time the viewers would have to take to him. I don't know about you folks, but if I don't like a character it makes it so much harder to like a show.
It might be OK to introduce unlikeable characters. Ann the insurance lady is top of my list, but there's also Simon and Gertrude Moon, but none of these characters are regular to every show. Their dislikable attributes can only affect our enjoyment of the program so much.

The character developed because he had too to run the course. Martin was multi dementional because real people are multi dimentional. You may be able to attribute a characteristic to a character, but you can't make them that one thing all the time and never have them do anything different.
I don't like the show Seinfeld (because from the short clips i've seen, I dont see anybody I find likable) and haven't seen much of it, but from what i've seen of the character Krammer he is always crazy and shouting at the top of his voice.

That can't stay funny for long, surely?

So I personally think they did a good job in bringing in Martin to be an obsticle to Frasier, and then developed him so that he fit into the show.

I am not sure about that. Cliff, the annoying, know it all (when in fact he knew almost nothing), IOW totally unlikeable, was a fixture of cheers for 11 years, yet the more he evolved as a character, the more outrageous his flaws became. To the point that it was Carla's lifelong dream to get rid of him forever (once she got rid of Diane that is. :wink: )

And frankly I have yet to meet a fan of Cheers who likes Cliff as a person, even in the slightest.
Frasier: You started us down that path of insanity. Golda Meir.
Golda My-ass!
User avatar
Patrick
 
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:43 am
Location: France

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Forever Jung » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:50 pm

:twisted: I thought Cliff was quite funny myself.

It was Carla I couldn't stand.
The Cranes of Maine have got my Living Brain
User avatar
Forever Jung
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Somewhere with scrambled egg all over my face

Re: Martin Crane

Postby CatNamedRudy » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:05 pm

I don't like the show Seinfeld (because from the short clips i've seen, I dont see anybody I find likable) and haven't seen much of it, but from what i've seen of the character Krammer he is always crazy and shouting at the top of his voice.

That can't stay funny for long, surely?



Kramer always shouting from the top of his voice? What Seinfeld clips have you been watching? He was crazy and on occasion there was a yell or two but those times were only once in a while. I found Seinfeld very funny and entertaining. For 9 years. Is that long?

As for Cliff, I always found him rather annoying but I didn't hate his character. I actually disliked Diane more than any character on that show.
This is the STUPIDEST day I've ever had!
User avatar
CatNamedRudy
 
Posts: 24607
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:08 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA: King Scott Walker reigning!

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Forever Jung » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:12 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:Kramer always shouting from the top of his voice? What Seinfeld clips have you been watching? He was crazy and on occasion there was a yell or two but those times were only once in a while. I found Seinfeld very funny and entertaining. For 9 years. Is that long?


:twisted: Don't know what clips, I always turned over when I realized what was on :lol:
For instance, if I were doing something on the computer with the TV on in the background, and I turned round and show was on, i'd see a little bit.

My judgement on the show may not be the best because i've not watched enough.
That's why I wrote "from what i've seen" :wink:
From what I have seen, I didn't like it.
The Cranes of Maine have got my Living Brain
User avatar
Forever Jung
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Somewhere with scrambled egg all over my face

drifting off topic now

Postby Emil » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:19 am

Forever Jung wrote:I don't like the show Seinfeld (because from the short clips i've seen, I dont see anybody I find likable) and haven't seen much of it, but from what i've seen of the character Krammer he is always crazy and shouting at the top of his voice.

OT: My brother once said, "You know, Seinfeld on TV has a friend called Fraser..."
Talk about mix-up! :D
User avatar
Emil
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:36 pm

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Moon-Crane » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:29 am

Forever Jung wrote:I don't like the show Seinfeld (because from the short clips i've seen, I dont see anybody I find likable) and haven't seen much of it, but from what i've seen of the character Krammer he is always crazy and shouting at the top of his voice.

That can't stay funny for long, surely?


Interesting perception. You're a huge Meat Loaf fan, yet whenever i see him on tv all he appears to do is put on the abrasive act and constantly shout at the top of his voice. I imagine that never gets tiring for you, though?

There's no real rhyme or reason. We all like what we like and we'll do whatever it takes to justify it :D
''Fire in the hole, Bitch!'' Jesse Pinkman - Breaking Bad

My Top TV
User avatar
Moon-Crane
 
Posts: 20753
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:19 pm
Location: Bucks, UK

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Whisper of cinnamon » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:08 pm

I get the sense that the writers want us to side with Martin because he's "down-to-earth" - an assessment I've heard other people make of his character - while chiding Frasier and Niles' rarefied "pretensions".


Well, Martin has a much better understanding of people in general and of the realities of life than either of his children.


I always saw him as the good-natured, righteous old man who provides a reality check for the more intellectual Crane brothers.


These opinions raise a very interesting point about the show.

I've always found it interesting that the two main channels of criticism, and praise, that I've heard about Frasier are completely opposing. Some people tell me they don't like it because it seems too clever for its own good and smugly revelling in its elitism and obscure, intellectual references. But the other complaint I've heard it's that it's an annoyingly anti-intellectual show, where the down-to-earth Martin always shows up the stupid intellectuals who think they know better. Similarly, those who like it tell me that they like the way it's so refined and sophisticated, and a cut above your average sitcom. But others tell me that what they love about the show is the way that it makes fun of these silly, pretentious intellectuals. I find all this really interesting, because all of these opinions over-simplify the way the show works. In fact, Frasier both delights in, and satirizes, both 'high' and popular culture in all its facets, both intellectualism and anti-intellectualism. (Yes, Frasier and Niles' snobbery and pretension is made fun of, but so are Martin's tastes - how about the shark-skin suit in a mayonnaise jar or the cheese-injected food - 'Just as nature intended', as Frasier quips.)

People often talk about how Frasier over-thinks things and Martin talks more common sense, but it can work the other way too. Frasier's over-thinking being wrong probably happens more often because he's the main character, and therefore his character flaws and dillemmas are more of the main focus, but Martin gets it wrong too. What about, off the top of my head, Here's Looking At You or 3 Dates And A Breakup where Martin's unwillingess to really face up to, or talk about, his issues, is mucking up his relationships, and Frasier's approach of really making Martin think about his situation, to be honest about his feelings and desires, is actuallly the right one. So just as Frasier can over-think, Martin can also under-think. The writers let the audience make up their own mind who to side with. That's one of the reasons the show is so rich and satisfying. Martin is very much the old-school, 'bottle up your problems/emotions and pretend they don't exist' kind of guy, so the fact that his two sons are both psychiatrists, a profession which is about 'get all your problems and emotions out in the open', is fantastically ironic. In The Unkindest Cut Of All, Martin's feelings of uselessness now he's retired are not being addressed, so he lashes out angrily at Frasier rather than tell him how he's really feeling. Once Frasier forces him to talk about it, Frasier is able to reassure him about how much he's respected, and this is a good thing, that wouldn't have happened without Frasier's prodding. This also happens in The Babysitter (getting to the real root of Martin's impotency), I'm Listening (urging Martin to be honest with Ronee about how he feels about her instead of covering it up) and Boo! (getting Martin to admit that his heart attack (sorry, 'cardiac event'!) changes things and that he needs to be honest with Ronee about it (it happens quite a bit in S11, maybe because Martin has a lot of focus in that season).

This series-long conflict/debate about over/under-thinking one's problems is made very explicit in say, Come Lie With Me, where the theme that links all of Frasier, Niles' and Martin's stories in that episode is 'Confront issues or live in denial?' In that episode, Frasier realises that Martin is right and that denial is the best strategy. On another occasion, in the excellent Kenny On The Couch, this theme is what the whole episode is about and what Frasier and Martin argue over. But by the end of the episode Martin agrees that in this instance, Frasier is right and Kenny should talk through his problems. And just as denial worked in Come Lie With Me, so it causes Niles to crack in Murder Most Maris because he's not allowing himself to feel his emotions, and he's only able to get back to feeling better once he stops being in denial.

One of the reasons that Frasier is my favourite T.V. show of all time is that I find this theme particularly pertinent because I find this issue to be the key to me being a happy and successful person - getting the balance right between thinking about things enough to be self-aware and empathetic to others, but not over-thinking to the point where you're seeing problems that aren't there or making life too difficult for yourself. This is a key theme of the show throughout its run. In fact sometimes I feel I have a debate going on in my head between my 'inner Frasier/Niles' and my 'inner Martin'! Sometimes you need to sort through your problems, and sometimes you just want to watch T.V. and have a beer and forget about everything. It's about finding the balance. Frasier and Martin are both imbalanced to either extreme. And in fact, through living together, one does sometimes help the other via their different approaches to life's problems.
Last edited by Whisper of cinnamon on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Whisper of cinnamon
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:28 am

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Forever Jung » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:50 pm

Moon-Crane wrote:Interesting perception. You're a huge Meat Loaf fan, yet whenever i see him on tv all he appears to do is put on the abrasive act and constantly shout at the top of his voice. I imagine that never gets tiring for you, though?

There's no real rhyme or reason. We all like what we like and we'll do whatever it takes to justify it :D


:twisted: An excellent point 8-)
I don't know if i'd call him abrasive but he's deffinatly over the top a lot of the time. But I find his personality funny.
I remember the dude who did the soap reviews for GMTV was getting interupted by Meat, and he said "The laugh's on you because I got £10 from It Shouldn't Happen To A TV Presenter every time you interupt me". Meat, being the nice and helpful guy he is :lol: said he'd help him make some more money by interupting again and said they were now up to £20 lol.
The point is, I find Meat funny in that role at that time because sometimes it's like watching an extended clip of ISHTATVP.
I used to like It'll Be Alright On The Night, Clive James, Tarrant On TV, and I like watching Rude Tube when things are going wrong. A Meat interview can be like a feature length clip.

It's not the only sign i've seen of him though. I've seen/read some pretty interesting interviews from him.

Doesn't matter what i'd call him though, if your perception is that he's abrasive because it's all you've ever seen him do, to you he's abrasive.
The Cranes of Maine have got my Living Brain
User avatar
Forever Jung
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Somewhere with scrambled egg all over my face

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Moon-Crane » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:17 pm

Forever Jung wrote:
Moon-Crane wrote:Interesting perception. You're a huge Meat Loaf fan, yet whenever i see him on tv all he appears to do is put on the abrasive act and constantly shout at the top of his voice. I imagine that never gets tiring for you, though?

There's no real rhyme or reason. We all like what we like and we'll do whatever it takes to justify it :D


:twisted: An excellent point 8-)
I don't know if i'd call him abrasive but he's deffinatly over the top a lot of the time. But I find his personality funny.
I remember the dude who did the soap reviews for GMTV was getting interupted by Meat, and he said "The laugh's on you because I got £10 from It Shouldn't Happen To A TV Presenter every time you interupt me". Meat, being the nice and helpful guy he is :lol: said he'd help him make some more money by interupting again and said they were now up to £20 lol.
The point is, I find Meat funny in that role at that time because sometimes it's like watching an extended clip of ISHTATVP.
I used to like It'll Be Alright On The Night, Clive James, Tarrant On TV, and I like watching Rude Tube when things are going wrong. A Meat interview can be like a feature length clip.

It's not the only sign i've seen of him though. I've seen/read some pretty interesting interviews from him.

Doesn't matter what i'd call him though, if your perception is that he's abrasive because it's all you've ever seen him do, to you he's abrasive.


:D It wasn't even a criticism, as i quite like him being like that with most presenters - it livens things up. Abrasive isn't a negative in my eyes when applied to most television appearances. I like the guests who get loud and disruptive - much like when Ross Noble appears as a guest on otherwise fairly sedate chat/magazine shows and it's like a whirlwind hits the place (did any Brits happen to catch him on the recent Sunday Brunch? - hilarious) :lol: You need someone to come and shake things up every so often.

Anyway, I think we've managed to divert this thread just nicely. I'll let people get back to Martin talk :D
''Fire in the hole, Bitch!'' Jesse Pinkman - Breaking Bad

My Top TV
User avatar
Moon-Crane
 
Posts: 20753
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:19 pm
Location: Bucks, UK

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Forever Jung » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:50 pm

Moon-Crane wrote: (did any Brits happen to catch him on the recent Sunday Brunch? - hilarious)


:twisted: I didn't, no :shock:

I'd say my favourite clips were when he did GMTV a couple of days before playing Party In The Park, and he interupted everyone from the soap gossip guy to the weather girl, and there was the clip after his performance at Part In The Park when Avid Merion tried to interview him, and Meat completly turned it around and had Leigh Francis stuck for words.
It was funny that most foreighn talent don't know who Avid Merion is so get completly flustered, but Meat blew him out of the water big time. The look on his face is priceless. I dare say you can find it on youtube. It's well worth seeing 8-)

As you said though, we've hijacked this thread quite enough so let's talk about a pissed off old guy with a cane :D
The Cranes of Maine have got my Living Brain
User avatar
Forever Jung
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Somewhere with scrambled egg all over my face

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Forever Jung » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:54 pm

:twisted: Something has just occured to me about Martins early days.
It was not long after he'd been shot (that would leave you pissed off) and he had to move in with his son which would be something that pissed him off on so many levels. As Martin himself said, he was used to making the rules, not obeying them. His tastes were completly out of sync with Frasiers. The loss of independence and the "shame" that he couldn't live alone anymore.

All that would piss you off, although after a while you find a way to move on.
A natural progression of character for what he was going through, no?
The Cranes of Maine have got my Living Brain
User avatar
Forever Jung
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Somewhere with scrambled egg all over my face

Re: Martin Crane

Postby Patrick » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:01 pm

I have a Martin Crane adjacent remark to make: That Eddy is one hell of a trained dog! The things he does throughout the show ( And yes I know there are two of them, father an son) are simply amazing.
Frasier: You started us down that path of insanity. Golda Meir.
Golda My-ass!
User avatar
Patrick
 
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:43 am
Location: France


Return to Frasier Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron

© Site contents are copyright Stuart Lee 1999 - 2024. This is a Frasier fan site and is not affiliated in any way with the program, Grub St Productions, Paramount or NBC.