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The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:15 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:The thing that I hate about Wheels is the fact that Frasier is right and everyone treats him like he's an idiot. It's the same thing with The Crucible for me. In both of these episodes it's Martin that I want to slap in the head repeatedly!

If I was surrounded by peer pressuring idiots like Frasier in that episode, I would have questioned the guy about the accident, get him to tell the exact location and the time it happened or make him admit that it was all a lie. I mean you can't invent those things. If something really happened then every detail of it can be checked, if it didn't then pretty soon you won't be able to give the evidence. Frasier's mistake was to underestimate the stupidity of the people surrounding him, including himself in the end. Then using Martin's connection with the police or even as a simple citizen he could have checked the police report about the so called accident and prove that it never happened.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby welshben23 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:28 pm

Perruchee wrote:The Seal Who Came to Dinner - It's all about the seal. There are some pretty funny parts to this episode, but I think they go way in too much detail about the seal. I didn't watch this episode once and think I'll never watch again. I've seen it many times, but got to the point where I don't want to hear about stabbing a dead seal, how to bury it, how much it stinks and what it's wearing. I would have liked this episode more if there had been more about maybe the neighbor who loved Maris and the snobby chef.


But then it would be called "The Neighbour Who Came to Dinner" 8-)
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:43 pm

welshben23 wrote:
Perruchee wrote:The Seal Who Came to Dinner - It's all about the seal. There are some pretty funny parts to this episode, but I think they go way in too much detail about the seal. I didn't watch this episode once and think I'll never watch again. I've seen it many times, but got to the point where I don't want to hear about stabbing a dead seal, how to bury it, how much it stinks and what it's wearing. I would have liked this episode more if there had been more about maybe the neighbor who loved Maris and the snobby chef.


But then it would be called "The Neighbour Who Came to Dinner" 8-)

That or The Neighbor with the wolfhound puppies. :lol:

Or more cryptic... The color changing shovel. :D
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Ariel » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:27 pm

Totally agree about the seal episode, would never watch it again and didn't find it remotely funny, in fact I found it very unpleasant. It's the only episode I only ever watched once.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Roverman » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:15 pm

Patrick wrote:
CatNamedRudy wrote:The thing that I hate about Wheels is the fact that Frasier is right and everyone treats him like he's an idiot. It's the same thing with The Crucible for me. In both of these episodes it's Martin that I want to slap in the head repeatedly!

If I was surrounded by peer pressuring idiots like Frasier in that episode, I would have questioned the guy about the accident, get him to tell the exact location and the time it happened or make him admit that it was all a lie. I mean you can't invent those things. If something really happened then every detail of it can be checked, if it didn't then pretty soon you won't be able to give the evidence. Frasier's mistake was to underestimate the stupidity of the people surrounding him, including himself in the end. Then using Martin's connection with the police or even as a simple citizen he could have checked the police report about the so called accident and prove that it never happened.


It annoys me greatly that Martin, a seasoned cop, who gave Frasier a hard time once for not spotting the ex-crim at a poker game, that he took everything Blaine said as truth!
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby CatNamedRudy » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:49 am

It annoys me greatly that Martin, a seasoned cop, who gave Frasier a hard time once for not spotting the ex-crim at a poker game, that he took everything Blaine said as truth!


Yep. Ranks right up there with Martin blowing off the fact that Frasier was the victim of a very expensive art forgery crime in The Crucible.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Roverman » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:06 am

Exactly! Martin may not 'get' art or why Frasier spends so much money on it, but he should defend his right not to be conned!
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:07 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:
It annoys me greatly that Martin, a seasoned cop, who gave Frasier a hard time once for not spotting the ex-crim at a poker game, that he took everything Blaine said as truth!


Yep. Ranks right up there with Martin blowing off the fact that Frasier was the victim of a very expensive art forgery crime in The Crucible.

There are a lot of things that are definitely wrong with Martin. Like how many times Frasier goes out of his way to find him a date or mend fences with the woman he's with (Starting with "Here's Looking At You") and how does Martin repay that kindness? More often than not by ruining Frasier's by saying something stupid or acting like an ill-mannered boor. Also the fact that he breaks Frasier's things and then brags about it to Daphne... etc.. In many an occasion Martin acts like an ingrate. He only acknowledges what Frasier has done to him at the very end.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby LeCigareVolant » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:32 am

Not sure I can pick an absolute least favorite, but I can tell you that certain themes in episodes have less replay value for me -- notably those that focus heavily on the radio biz (SeaBees, agents, etc.). Conversely, I always love the ones where Frasier, Niles, and Martin share a meaningful moment together (Breaking the Ice, the end of The Maris Counselor).

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "worst episode," but I will say there's only one episode that legit makes me angry: Daphne Returns. Niles is absolutely pummeled in this episode for doing absolutely nothing wrong, and it seems everyone gives Daphne a free pass for not taking responsibility for her own naivety and coping mechanisms (or lack thereof). It's a well-written episode if for no other reason than the emotions it stirs, and I can appreciate the theme of falling in love with a person instead on one's vision of that person, but I truly believe Niles got a seriously raw deal in that episode.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Allystare » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:03 pm

LeCigareVolant wrote:Not sure I can pick an absolute least favorite, but I can tell you that certain themes in episodes have less replay value for me -- notably those that focus heavily on the radio biz (SeaBees, agents, etc.). Conversely, I always love the ones where Frasier, Niles, and Martin share a meaningful moment together (Breaking the Ice, the end of The Maris Counselor).

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "worst episode," but I will say there's only one episode that legit makes me angry: Daphne Returns. Niles is absolutely pummeled in this episode for doing absolutely nothing wrong, and it seems everyone gives Daphne a free pass for not taking responsibility for her own naivety and coping mechanisms (or lack thereof). It's a well-written episode if for no other reason than the emotions it stirs, and I can appreciate the theme of falling in love with a person instead on one's vision of that person, but I truly believe Niles got a seriously raw deal in that episode.


I think you're forgetting that Niles was a condescending jackass and boor throughout that episode to Daphne. This is not supporting behavior to display for someone who just got out a fat camp and therapy. Especially considering Niles is a seasoned psychiatrist himself -- he is the last person who should be taking that sort of tone with someone who is a recovering patient like Daphne. He also seems upset that Daphne goes to another psychiatrist rather than himself, when he himself has refused to treat Daphne in previous episodes because they were too close so it would be inappropriate for them to be patient-psychiatrist. Basically, he seems extremely insecure in that episode, and very unsupportive, and very rude with his sardonic remarks. Completely inappropriate behavior for a partner and a psychiatrist.

Also, he's the only one that fails to realize that he is the catalyst for Daphne's condition because he has an unrealistic, and idealized view of her. She gains 60 pounds, and he's the only one in the whole family who fails to recognize it. If this was his only crime, it wouldn't be bad -- this sort of thing happens in relationships, but the fact that he is so rude and unsympathetic to Daphne throughout that episode is why all the other characters are upset with him.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby PistolPoet » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:47 pm

Allystare wrote:
LeCigareVolant wrote:Not sure I can pick an absolute least favorite, but I can tell you that certain themes in episodes have less replay value for me -- notably those that focus heavily on the radio biz (SeaBees, agents, etc.). Conversely, I always love the ones where Frasier, Niles, and Martin share a meaningful moment together (Breaking the Ice, the end of The Maris Counselor).

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "worst episode," but I will say there's only one episode that legit makes me angry: Daphne Returns. Niles is absolutely pummeled in this episode for doing absolutely nothing wrong, and it seems everyone gives Daphne a free pass for not taking responsibility for her own naivety and coping mechanisms (or lack thereof). It's a well-written episode if for no other reason than the emotions it stirs, and I can appreciate the theme of falling in love with a person instead on one's vision of that person, but I truly believe Niles got a seriously raw deal in that episode.


I think you're forgetting that Niles was a condescending jackass and boor throughout that episode to Daphne. This is not supporting behavior to display for someone who just got out a fat camp and therapy. Especially considering Niles is a seasoned psychiatrist himself -- he is the last person who should be taking that sort of tone with someone who is a recovering patient like Daphne. He also seems upset that Daphne goes to another psychiatrist rather than himself, when he himself has refused to treat Daphne in previous episodes because they were too close so it would be inappropriate for them to be patient-psychiatrist. Basically, he seems extremely insecure in that episode, and very unsupportive, and very rude with his sardonic remarks. Completely inappropriate behavior for a partner and a psychiatrist.

Also, he's the only one that fails to realize that he is the catalyst for Daphne's condition because he has an unrealistic, and idealized view of her. She gains 60 pounds, and he's the only one in the whole family who fails to recognize it. If this was his only crime, it wouldn't be bad -- this sort of thing happens in relationships, but the fact that he is so rude and unsympathetic to Daphne throughout that episode is why all the other characters are upset with him.


I agree. Plus, I think it's a tad too easy to say that Daphne should have taken responsibility for her own coping mechanisms, when lots of those mechanisms (a majority, even?) are subconscious. Daphne herself had no idea why she was overeating, which is why she needed therapy. Not even psychiatrists are capable of being so self-aware all the time (as proven by Niles, who isn't aware he's idealising Daphne). I think the only one treated unfairly by Daphne in that episode is the refrigerator pig :).
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:57 pm

I still can't get over the fact that Martin basically said that in the US there was a loophole in the law concerning fine art forgery. For one thing you don't sell expensive art without a bunch of certificates written by renown experts. If the dealer had forged these certificates he'd be in jail for a long time, if the experts had mistaken the painting for an authentic one then their reputations would be destroyed irreparably, also they'd be liable to pay damages, not to mention do some jail time. There's no way that they could get away with it. I think they were desperate to find an injustice Frasier would be powerless to redress and they choose the wrong one.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby CatNamedRudy » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:51 pm

Allystare wrote:
LeCigareVolant wrote:Not sure I can pick an absolute least favorite, but I can tell you that certain themes in episodes have less replay value for me -- notably those that focus heavily on the radio biz (SeaBees, agents, etc.). Conversely, I always love the ones where Frasier, Niles, and Martin share a meaningful moment together (Breaking the Ice, the end of The Maris Counselor).

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "worst episode," but I will say there's only one episode that legit makes me angry: Daphne Returns. Niles is absolutely pummeled in this episode for doing absolutely nothing wrong, and it seems everyone gives Daphne a free pass for not taking responsibility for her own naivety and coping mechanisms (or lack thereof). It's a well-written episode if for no other reason than the emotions it stirs, and I can appreciate the theme of falling in love with a person instead on one's vision of that person, but I truly believe Niles got a seriously raw deal in that episode.


I think you're forgetting that Niles was a condescending jackass and boor throughout that episode to Daphne. This is not supporting behavior to display for someone who just got out a fat camp and therapy. Especially considering Niles is a seasoned psychiatrist himself -- he is the last person who should be taking that sort of tone with someone who is a recovering patient like Daphne. He also seems upset that Daphne goes to another psychiatrist rather than himself, when he himself has refused to treat Daphne in previous episodes because they were too close so it would be inappropriate for them to be patient-psychiatrist. Basically, he seems extremely insecure in that episode, and very unsupportive, and very rude with his sardonic remarks. Completely inappropriate behavior for a partner and a psychiatrist.

Also, he's the only one that fails to realize that he is the catalyst for Daphne's condition because he has an unrealistic, and idealized view of her. She gains 60 pounds, and he's the only one in the whole family who fails to recognize it. If this was his only crime, it wouldn't be bad -- this sort of thing happens in relationships, but the fact that he is so rude and unsympathetic to Daphne throughout that episode is why all the other characters are upset with him.


This Niles is an ass almost from the moment he picks Daphne up because he feels threatened. Daphne is the one I see doing nothing wrong.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby CatNamedRudy » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:52 pm

Patrick wrote:I still can't get over the fact that Martin basically said that in the US there was a loophole in the law concerning fine art forgery. For one thing you don't sell expensive art without a bunch of certificates written by renown experts. If the dealer had forged these certificates he'd be in jail for a long time, if the experts had mistaken the painting for an authentic one then their reputations would be destroyed irreparably, also they'd be liable to pay damages, not to mention do some jail time. There's no way that they could get away with it. I think they were desperate to find an injustice Frasier would be powerless to redress and they choose the wrong one.


So true Patrick!
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:16 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:...This Niles is an ass almost from the moment he picks Daphne up because he feels threatened. Daphne is the one I see doing nothing wrong.

The more I think about that the less sure of that I become. Daphne is far from being the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to reading Niles emotions, IMO she should have been a little more sensitive and spoken a little less emphatically about all this. Everyone in the audience could see Niles impatience, why couldn't she? It's obvious that Niles wanted to have sex with her and that he felt (unconsciously) resentful of Daphne for not returning those feelings. He said what he did of course to hurt her ( not smear the psychologist) because she hurt him with her apathy. So he was an ass sure but with some mitigating circumstances, I'll say.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby heartofmotion » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:39 pm

Basically, he (Niles in Daphne Returns) seems extremely insecure in that episode, and very unsupportive, and very rude with his sardonic remarks


What I love about this is the way Martin cuts him down to size and that brings Niles to his senses. Martin's great at doing this with both Frasier and Niles when they go too far and they always take it on board cause they want his respect so much.

Thanks for the heads up on all the least good Frasier episodes. Personally I love Motor Skills - because Frasier and Niles are acting like brothers. I guess they felt way out of their depth in the motor class, and emasculated by all those women who could understand the lesson easily - so they lived out their up-till-now unlived fantasies of being troublemakers.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:31 pm

heartofmotion wrote:
Basically, he (Niles in Daphne Returns) seems extremely insecure in that episode, and very unsupportive, and very rude with his sardonic remarks


What I love about this is the way Martin cuts him down to size and that brings Niles to his senses. Martin's great at doing this with both Frasier and Niles when they go too far and they always take it on board cause they want his respect so much.

Thanks for the heads up on all the least good Frasier episodes. Personally I love Motor Skills - because Frasier and Niles are acting like brothers. I guess they felt way out of their depth in the motor class, and emasculated by all those women who could understand the lesson easily - so they lived out their up-till-now unlived fantasies of being troublemakers.

I think this episode (Motor Skills) stretches things out beyond the believable. First, If Frasier and Niles had these bad school manners ( chatting and not paying attention while the teacher is explaining the main points of his course) they would never have succeeded at Harvard where the courses no doubt were likely much more challenging and the professors much less patient with unruly students . Second this was a course for dummies, I mean please, the quantity of information being passed on here could likely have been assimilated in less than five minutes by them and then Niles and Frasier could have spent the rest of the hour talking about whatever they wanted. It's even more stupid that they can't catch up that very light course with the textbook afterward. My advice is that you have to do a great deal of suspension of disbelief in order to find this episode palatable.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby PistolPoet » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:53 pm

heartofmotion wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on all the least good Frasier episodes. Personally I love Motor Skills - because Frasier and Niles are acting like brothers. I guess they felt way out of their depth in the motor class, and emasculated by all those women who could understand the lesson easily - so they lived out their up-till-now unlived fantasies of being troublemakers.

Yeah, I like it too. It's nice to see Frasier and Niles trying to be troublemakers for the first time and failing miserably, but it's also nice to see just how nerdy (for lack of a better word) they used to be - "We're already seated, Randy!" Also, it proves that you can't be good at everything (similar to Seat of Power). Sure, they could have passed the course if they'd really tried hard, but they thought it was boring and they just didn't care, which must ring true to most of us :) (though I really regret not paying enough attention in physics classes in high school).
I'm even OK with the Roz/Martin story, though Martin is a real pain in the butt. The only thing I really didn't like was when Daphne said to Frasier's date, who was excited about seeing her first opera, "Why, you've never been bored before?" It's a tiny sentence, but the way she said it just irritated me because it showed quite well the new, bitchy side of Daphne. I don't suppose Niles dragged her to the opera all the time, so this one time she could have been at least a little supportive and stay quiet if she didn't have anything nice to say.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:27 pm

PistolPoet wrote:
heartofmotion wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on all the least good Frasier episodes. Personally I love Motor Skills - because Frasier and Niles are acting like brothers. I guess they felt way out of their depth in the motor class, and emasculated by all those women who could understand the lesson easily - so they lived out their up-till-now unlived fantasies of being troublemakers.

Yeah, I like it too. It's nice to see Frasier and Niles trying to be troublemakers for the first time and failing miserably, but it's also nice to see just how nerdy (for lack of a better word) they used to be - "We're already seated, Randy!" Also, it proves that you can't be good at everything (similar to Seat of Power). Sure, they could have passed the course if they'd really tried hard,

"Hard"!!! They didn't have to try hard at all. All they needed was being written as people with an IQ above 60. Frasier may be many things but I doubt he could be Corky not even for the sake of one lame excuse for a plotline.



but they thought it was boring and they just didn't care,

I have no difficulty believing that they were bored but that doesn't keep them or anybody from understanding the obvious.

which must ring true to most of us :) (though I really regret not paying enough attention in physics classes in high school).

If you were this bad in physics classes as they were there, you either were in a section where the sciences were worth next to nothing when it comes to your evaluation as a student or you had to settle for second rate post-graduate schools.


I'm even OK with the Roz/Martin story, though Martin is a real pain in the butt. The only thing I really didn't like was when Daphne said to Frasier's date, who was excited about seeing her first opera, "Why, you've never been bored before?" It's a tiny sentence, but the way she said it just irritated me because it showed quite well the new, bitchy side of Daphne. I don't suppose Niles dragged her to the opera all the time, so this one time she could have been at least a little supportive and stay quiet if she didn't have anything nice to say.

I agree that Daphne's remark about the opera was a bit out of line. I would definitely have reacted badly if my "date" (we don't really have dates here, not the way Americans understand that word at any rate, you're either involved or you are friends going somewhere together. "Date" is a strange concept that implies that someone is supposed to be the potential mate of someone else, sort of a pre-being-together-kind-of-state, which to me and most of the friends I've talked about it, as a cultural quirk of the Americans, sounds really silly) had said that sort of thing under a similar set of circumstances. In fact I would immediately have offered her a ride home where she could have less boring activities at her leisure.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby ProOperaVoter » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:14 am

I totally agree, Patrick. I also sincerely despise any episodes that revolve around Gertrude. She's insufferable and makes me want to shoot myself. I also agree with the earlier mention of "Some Assembly Required." I've always liked Dial M for Martin, to be honest.
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby heartofmotion » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:22 pm

Also, it proves that you can't be good at everything (similar to Seat of Power). Sure, they could have passed the course if they'd really tried hard, but they thought it was boring and they just didn't care.


I don't think they could! These guys are impractical aesthetes, good at talking, listening, and sampling haute cuisine and wine. As I am also impractical, I relate completely to feeling totally out of my depth in a car mechanics class. I think Frasier and Niles genuinely felt intellectually inadequate hence their regression to pre-adolescent behaviour!

The only thing I really didn't like was when Daphne said to Frasier's date, who was excited about seeing her first opera, "Why, you've never been bored before?" It's a tiny sentence, but the way she said it just irritated me because it showed quite well the new, bitchy side of Daphne. I don't suppose Niles dragged her to the opera all the time, so this one time she could have been at least a little supportive and stay quiet if she didn't have anything nice to say.


I've recently been watching Season 11 episodes and I completely agree. What exactly happened to Daphne after marrying Niles? She seems to be constantly putting him down and rapidly turning into a parody of her mother. She loses all her willingness to please - a major feature of the character pre-Niles. Poor Niles never stops trying to make her happy but gets constantly shouted at for his pains!
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Re: The Worst Episode of Frasier Ever

Postby Patrick » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:05 pm

heartofmotion wrote:...
I've recently been watching Season 11 episodes and I completely agree. What exactly happened to Daphne after marrying Niles? She seems to be constantly putting him down and rapidly turning into a parody of her mother. She loses all her willingness to please - a major feature of the character pre-Niles. Poor Niles never stops trying to make her happy but gets constantly shouted at for his pains!

I agree, I'd hate to see what would have become of their couple after five more years of marriage, I bet Daphne would have turned into a new version of Maris. Poor Niles seems to be doomed to marry Marises...
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