Least favourite story arc

[Patrick]

No, the fact that she needed to borrow money from Bulldog means that she spent the loan from Frasier. We don't know what she spent it on, and there is no evidence to say she didn't spend it mostly on Alice and other 'responsible' things. In fact, she gets very hurt (imo sincerely, her voice quivers) when Frasier accuses her of being irresponsible, and that to me is proof that she didn't waste the money.

No, I strongly disagree with that. Had she spent the money on Alice, she would have told him so instead of talking at length about how she didn't spend the money on herself. To me it's obvious that it was all an act and that she did blow the all wad on herself. Also the part about borrowing money from Bulldog would be totally pointless otherwise. Remember that Frasier is supposed to be funny. What's funny about Roz spending her money responsibly and then borrowing money because of that?

I don't remember any example of Roz teaching Alice to lie; the only similar thing I remember (but I'll gladly accept examples) is when Roz promises Alice ice cream for being rude to Gertrude (a thing many people would do, given Gertrude's insufferable personality).

She's shown to lie herself on several occasions and then to teach her own daughter to do the same. What further evidence do you need? My parents would have punished me, had they caught me lying. They made sure that I knew that.

I admit the Bebe business was unethical, but I also think that she did initially want Frasier to fire Bebe for his own good.

It wasn't for his own good. It was selfish revenge. And at the same time she made him fire her, she went behind his back and hired her herself. What possible good can you see in that? She did nothing for his own good, she acted like a selfish bitch. That's what she did. Frasier was sincere and true to his word in that episode even if it needed a little arm twisting, the reverse can be said about Roz.

The business with Noel is terrible but, as I've said before, imo utterly out of character, so I can't take it into account when discussing Roz's flaws.

It was the worst of it, but it definitely wasn't out of character given the preceding examples.
Plus she is egocentric with her lovers, she cheats on them all the time, but when she finds one that she likes she expects him to be monogamous.
She applies one standard to herself and another one to every one else and guess which standard is the most indulgent?

Roz is definitely a good character for the show but not because she's a good person. Bad people are often more entertaining than good ones.

[Frasiertime]

I don't think Roz is a bad person or a bad mother, I just never understood what Alice added to the show. It didn't serve to add character development (imo) for Roz.

The one time I did appreciate it though, is when Roz, Alice and Donny were at the cabin (when Niles was trying to throw them together). The looked like a family and I could picture Donny with Roz and Alice, they seemed to fit, unlike Donny and Daphne. Too bad that didn't happen for the long term.

[DiceMan]

I don't know what constitutes an arc, but Maris' exit stunk for me. The whole evading cops and pulling a frame job just didn't sit right.

[Forever Jung]

Frasier and Julie, and Roz leaving and then coming back.

[Patrick]

:twisted: Frasier and Julie, and Roz leaving and then coming back.

True, I mean Roz is leaving, no she's coming back, no she's leaving, no she's coming back.

That could have been funny, the way they did it with Diane in Cheers was, but not here, It was kinda annoying.

[PistolPoet]

The one time I did appreciate it though, is when Roz, Alice and Donny were at the cabin (when Niles was trying to throw them together). The looked like a family and I could picture Donny with Roz and Alice, they seemed to fit, unlike Donny and Daphne. Too bad that didn't happen for the long term.

Absolutely! Ideally, I'd have liked Roz to end up with Roger (mostly because he's better looking than Donny, I'm afraid), but Donny, Alice and she would make a wonderful family.

No, I strongly disagree with that. Had she spent the money on Alice, she would have told him so instead of talking at length about how she didn't spend the money on herself. To me it's obvious that it was all an act and that she did blow the all wad on herself. Also the part about borrowing money from Bulldog would be totally pointless otherwise. Remember that Frasier is supposed to be funny. What's funny about Roz spending her money responsibly and then borrowing money because of that?

Frasier also has serious moments, and to me, this was one of them. And if I was Roz, I would have reacted the same way. I'd think Frasier was nosy and insulting and I wouldn't want to justify my actions to him cos he didn't deserve it. But you have your opinion, I have mine, and that's OK .

She's shown to lie herself on several occasions and then to teach her own daughter to do the same. What further evidence do you need? My parents would have punished me, had they caught me lying. They made sure that I knew that.

I needed examples (and Beatz and Cat named one), because it's not enough to tell me "she teaches her daughter to lie" without being able to corroborate it.

It wasn't for his own good. It was selfish revenge. And at the same time she made him fire her, she went behind his back and hired her herself. What possible good can you see in that? She did nothing for his own good, she acted like a selfish bitch. That's what she did. Frasier was sincere and true to his word in that episode even if it needed a little arm twisting, the reverse can be said about Roz.

I said initially, meaning when the words came out of her mouth, which was right after she found out Bebe was responsible for her not getting the job. She said, "I'm not just suggesting this for my sake, I'm suggesting it for yours." So of course she wanted Bebe fired cos she was furious at her, but also because, as she added, Bebe's behaviour reflected badly on Frasier. At that point, I can't possibly think that Roz was already plotting to hire Bebe herself. She only hired Bebe after being convinced she's a good agent, after Bebe's speech at her office.

Plus she is egocentric with her lovers, she cheats on them all the time, but when she finds one that she likes she expects him to be monogamous.
She applies one standard to herself and another one to every one else and guess which standard is the most indulgent?

Those are oversimplifications and overgeneralisations, but I'm not going to launch a big debate about it because we're already off-topic with all this anyway. You go on thinking she's a bad person, I'll go on thinking she's not, and let that be the end of it .

[Patrick]

Frasier also has serious moments, and to me, this was one of them. And if I was Roz, I would have reacted the same way. I'd think Frasier was nosy and insulting and I wouldn't want to justify my actions to him cos he didn't deserve it. But you have your opinion, I have mine, and that's OK .

Roz is not one to mince words, if she wanted to tell Frasier that he was nosy and insulting, she would have just said so. Now you're speaking as if you were her lawyer in a criminal case. Pretty soon you'll want to redefine the word "is".

I needed examples (and Beatz and Cat named one), because it's not enough to tell me "she teaches her daughter to lie" without being able to corroborate it.

Now you're crossing the line. You're complaining about a lack of examples while saying that you got that example. To quote Frasier in the harassed :"How much longer do we have to sit for this nonsense?"

I mean if you did get your example as you said you did and as I knew you did then your protestations are disingenuous at best.

A parent that teach her child to lie, even once, is a sleaze! Plus don't tell me that this was the only time because it looked like she did that a long time. Plus teaching your children to be disrespectful to older people (no matter the circumstances) makes you even more of a sleaze. We see enough children misbehave around old people without their OWN PARENTS teaching them to do even more of that and with their blessing.

Plus Roz certainly didn't learn this behavior from her mother so she has absolutely no excuses for being an amoral self-serving bitch.

I said initially, meaning when the words came out of her mouth, which was right after she found out Bebe was responsible for her not getting the job. She said, "I'm not just suggesting this for my sake, I'm suggesting it for yours." So of course she wanted Bebe fired cos she was furious at her, but also because, as she added, Bebe's behaviour reflected badly on Frasier. At that point, I can't possibly think that Roz was already plotting to hire Bebe herself. She only hired Bebe after being convinced she's a good agent, after Bebe's speech at her office.

So in conclusion : At best she's a flake and at worst she's a conniving shrew.

Those are oversimplifications and overgeneralisations, but I'm not going to launch a big debate about it because we're already off-topic with all this anyway. You go on thinking she's a bad person, I'll go on thinking she's not, and let that be the end of it .

Wrong! You're the one oversimplifying and overgeneralising, not to mention creating false dilemmas, E.G that complaint about not having been given an example that you said you had been given.

But go on thinking that good people teach their children to lie, promise sex to colleagues to get a trip to Vegas and otherwise lie without scruples whenever is convenient.

In case you haven't noticed, that's Roz who did all these things... AND MORE!

[Moon-Crane]

I don't know what constitutes an arc, but Maris' exit stunk for me. The whole evading cops and pulling a frame job just didn't sit right.

I didn't mind that exit for Maris. It was a suitably over the top conclusion for an invisible yet completely outrageous character.

[Patrick]

I don't know what constitutes an arc, but Maris' exit stunk for me. The whole evading cops and pulling a frame job just didn't sit right.

I didn't mind that exit for Maris. It was a suitably over the top conclusion for an invisible yet completely outrageous character.

I wonder which one of Vera or Maris was the more often referenced in their respective shows. I think the major difference between the two is that Norm was most likely lying about pretty much everything that he said about her, while for Niles it was pretty much the opposite, he was being truthful all the time.

[DiceMan]

I'm on season 5 or 6 of Cheers, and I'm thinking Maris is probably referenced more. But her references are probably more memorable I would say. Plus the whole family has met Maris, so their reactions and what not can possibly support some of the references, unlike Vera who (up until 5 or 6 at least) only had one dinner with the bar folk.

[PistolPoet]

But go on thinking that good people teach their children to lie, promise sex to colleagues to get a trip to Vegas and otherwise lie without scruples whenever is convenient.

In case you haven't noticed, that's Roz who did all these things... AND MORE!

At first I wanted to reply to your post, point by point. Then, as I read all of it, I realised I wouldn't, because you attacked me personally, while I only argued with your opinions. I thought that, when you blew up on Cat the other day, it was an isolated incident, but now I'm quite sure there's something more there. In any case, I will just try to stay out of your way, as I don't intend to waste my time and that of the other users.
I will only say this and then stop replying:
1) It might help you in the future if you read people's posts more closely. Two out of your many attacks at me come from the fact that you misunderstood me.
2) No one here is out to get you. There's no need to get defensive.
3) This is a sitcom board. We come here to discuss a funny show we all love. Sometimes people overanalyse things and get into heated discussions, but there is no reason for it to be as harsh as you make it. Try to relax.

I would like to apologise for the unusually protracted argument between Patrick and me, I honestly couldn't imagine that it would go this far. I'm fairly new here, so I I haven't met any mods, but if they feel like erasing my last few posts in this thread, I'm fine with it, since they are off topic. Sorry again!

[Patrick]

But go on thinking that good people teach their children to lie, promise sex to colleagues to get a trip to Vegas and otherwise lie without scruples whenever is convenient.

In case you haven't noticed, that's Roz who did all these things... AND MORE!

At first I wanted to reply to your post, point by point. Then, as I read all of it, I realised I wouldn't, because you attacked me personally, while I only argued with your opinions. I thought that, when you blew up on Cat the other day, it was an isolated incident, but now I'm quite sure there's something more there. In any case, I will just try to stay out of your way, as I don't intend to waste my time and that of the other users.
I will only say this and then stop replying:
1) It might help you in the future if you read people's posts more closely. Two out of your many attacks at me come from the fact that you misunderstood me.
2) No one here is out to get you. There's no need to get defensive.
3) This is a sitcom board. We come here to discuss a funny show we all love. Sometimes people overanalyse things and get into heated discussions, but there is no reason for it to be as harsh as you make it. Try to relax.

I would like to apologise for the unusually protracted argument between Patrick and me, I honestly couldn't imagine that it would go this far. I'm fairly new here, so I I haven't met any mods, but if they feel like erasing my last few posts in this thread, I'm fine with it, since they are off topic. Sorry again!

I didn't attack you at all. I showed the inconsistencies and general lack of logic of your reasoning and also your constant patronizing attitude toward me. You can't stand being wrong on anything so when you run out of good arguments you resort to playing the victim, by accusing me of the very things you've been doing from the start, also you try to draw people into the conversation that are not involved in it by your display of self-serving "better late than never" false sympathy towards them. If you can't discuss a subject on its own merits, which obviously you can't then you should stop BEFORE you resort to all these dirty tricks not AFTER you've done it.

The main thing is that you just realized that your position is untenable and now are embarrassed for having defended a person like Roz who has done many many things that range from unethical to outright sleazy. But since you can never admit being wrong then you decided to try and kill the messenger by gathering a crowd with torches and pitchforks against him.

Well, I am sorry if I can't play the bad guy in your little drama but I have better things to do than to help keep airtight sealed your overinflated ego.