What irritates you about 'Frasier'?

[Eddie2012]

Just watched Mixed Doubles last night and noticed that both Niles and Rodney keep wearing their wedding rings. Both go to a singles bar, then date - or try to date - Daphne and then Adelle, but keep their wedding bands on throughout? Is that logical? And when Daphne at the end says that she would never date a man who's separated (= not properly divorced?), then what the heck was she doing with Rodney?
Is nobody paying any attention to this, not even the actors who put them on?
(For a show that intelligent in terms of eloquency and wit, I find the inconsistencies and continuity errors quite frequent)

[Kittysafe]

I love this show, but really don't like the Frasier character. Pompous, conceited, constant yelling and/or temper tantrums.
Jealousy snits. I have received some flack for this, but others agree with me. who shows nearly no self awareness who is so full of himself he gives in to every desire
and pomposity he can muster, he also treats everyone around him terribly, he treats Daphne like a sub human, and is generally unlikable on
almost every level.

How this man went graduated medical school, became a psychiatrist then got a radio show is beyond me.
He's almost Rush Limbough in his hypocritical pomposity.

[Moon-Crane]

I love this show, but really don't like the Frasier character. Pompous, conceited, constant yelling and/or temper tantrums.
Jealousy snits. I have received some flack for this, but others agree with me. who shows nearly no self awareness who is so full of himself he gives in to every desire
and pomposity he can muster, he also treats everyone around him terribly, he treats Daphne like a sub human, and is generally unlikable on
almost every level.

How this man went graduated medical school, became a psychiatrist then got a radio show is beyond me.
He's almost Rush Limbough in his hypocritical pomposity.

I think we must be watching different cuts of the show. I don't agree with any of the above. He might have had moments of some of the above, but no worse than Niles did.

I can't imagine enjoying any show where i couldn't stand the lead character to that degree.

[Frasierfile]

umm.. the biggest thing would be..

Bob Bulldog Briscoe..
especially his 'SOMEBODY STOLE MY [item] THIS STINKS THIS IS TOTAL BS!! ' oh here it is'
it was funny ONCE, and then it just got old for the however many times he said it again

I could see why that would be annoying, but personally I quite like Bulldog. I love the way he gets into a complete rage about something, then finds that he was mistaken, calms down straight away and just carries on as if nothing's happened.

If we're talking about annoying characters, then Gil is the one I'd pick, without a doubt! Just everything about him... every word he says winds me up, the way he speaks, too. Bleurgh.

Gil bothers the crap out of me.. He just does. I adore Bulldog, and I often quote him around family, who have watched Frasier. I love him, he is my favorite non-main character. I don't really find him annoying at all, but I could see what think though.

[tenpercenter]

in to tell the turth , his willingness to screw up his brothers life just for his ethics, come on frasier, have some heart!

[Kittysafe]

Truth is Moon, they say we don't accept the aspects of others we see in ourselves, and honestly, I am a lot like frasier.

[frasier floyd]

What a great topic! I love this show but I could also pick it apart. The single most irritating thing about this show is part of Frasier's character. He thinks of himself as a crusader for morality and ethics, never missing an opportunity to let people know when they've erred, yet commits these same errors-and worse!- on a regular basis. I know this is pretty common behavior, but Frasier seems to be pathologically hypocritical and unaware of this! I know his hypocritical nature is a foundation for his character/the show- it's part of the entire show's description on Netflix- but it drives me crazy sometimes! Don't get me wrong, I love him for making me laugh so much, but I do sometimes have a love/hate relationship with him.

[TylerRodan]

What a great topic! I love this show but I could also pick it apart. The single most irritating thing about this show is part of Frasier's character. He thinks of himself as a crusader for morality and ethics, never missing an opportunity to let people know when they've erred, yet commits these same errors-and worse!- on a regular basis. I know this is pretty common behavior, but Frasier seems to be pathologically hypocritical and unaware of this! I know his hypocritical nature is a foundation for his character/the show- it's part of the entire show's description on Netflix- but it drives me crazy sometimes! Don't get me wrong, I love him for making me laugh so much, but I do sometimes have a love/hate relationship with him.

I agree with you Floyd- Frasier himself drives me nuts. "Snooty but lovable" isn't how I'd describe him, arrogant and clueless is a lot closer.

I'm always annoyed by the homophobia on the show, I was struck recently by how evident it is in a lot of episodes. I know it is part of the times the show was made during, but as someone who lived in the Pacific Northwest during the time Frasier was being produced it seems so out of place in a liberal town like Seattle (especially for people who try to pass themselves off as mental health practitioners). I guess it's more evidence of the out of touch-ness of the characters, but it always rubs me the wrong way. I think Freud himself would have had a field day with Frasier and Niles

[Patrick]

I agree it's disturbing, it's a form of racism. No American show still dares make fun of people because their skin color, right? So how come that it becomes OK when it comes to their sexual preferences? Something just isn't right there. I also note that there's no recurrent out of the closet gay on the show. There's Gil of course but he keeps denying it and that's just not normal. I mean it's even worse to have a closet gay than no gay at all. There's also Frasier's boss in season 2 but he's not really a recurring gay character, he's just someone who mentions that he's gay once for the sake of one episode and then only appears toward the end with the Bebe show but only briefly. I mean it could have been someone else and it wouldn't have changed a thing to the Bebe scene.
I also find disturbing Frasier's witch hunt in the Doctor Is Out. What business is it of his if Roz boyfriend is gay or bi for that matter. I mean it's going a little too far in violating someone's privacy. I mean under the excuse (it's for Roz's sake), that kind of excuse is wearing thin with me. I happen to believe in respecting people's privacy and that includes not putting my nose in their sexual arrangements. I mean I know people who live in threesome for example, they don't mention it but don't make a secret out of it, so I don't say anything either. I mean Frasier is a lousy psychiatrist if he thinks that he can just spy on someone's boyfriend because he can't figure out that some people have complex relationships. In my opinion he's a bigot and a few decades behind the times, I am speaking of the period during which the episodes were shot.

[frasier floyd]

Tyler- I have to say I never realized how often homophobia is expressed on the show. That is surprising given how Frasier and Niles are supposed to be cultured and open-minded about such things (plus they are certainly not your stereotypical men). And Patrick, you are right that for some reason it's still okay for tv shows to make jokes of gay stereotypes and homophobia. I guess gay people are the new trendy subjugated people- 'Frasier' should have been above this though.
Frasier in particular seems to be incapable of interacting with anyone who is different than him. He couldn't stand his new friend Bob or Dr. Mary, but was unable to deal with them in an honest manner simply because Bob was in a wheelchair and Mary was black. He relegates Daphne to position of maid and waitress simply because she works for him as physical therapist and is therefore beneath him (maybe they decided upon this arrangement as part of her contract, but it's always bothered me- cooking and keeping the house tidy while not helping Martin is one thing, but must she serve drinks at their soirees and run Frasier's errands for him too?). You are right in that Freud- or any psychiatrist- could have a field day with these two brothers.
Recently I watched New Friend, and after Niles' and Frasier's new friends leave them, Niles pushes out a chair for him... I realized they can only be friends with each other! At least they do seem to address this though, in the episode where Martin tells them the story of the two brothers who lived together/built a secret maze out of magazines until one died. Martin is pretty normal though,and Hester sounded okay so I have no idea how they could be so weird and horrible in their interpersonal relations! To me, Niles is fine besides his snobbishness, judgmental attitude and occasional OCD, but Frasier can be all of the above plus desperate and deceptive for love/sex! I think it's standard for psychiatrists to also see their own psychiatrists, I wonder why this was never addressed on the show.

edit: upon thinking about it some more, I remembered Frasier was left at the alter during his more laid-back days of Cheers, so I guess that could have played a large role in his desperation for love/sex as a way to feel validated as a person/man. Plus then Lilith cheated on him. So, although Frasier is often an unforgivable ass, I may have to cut him a break sometimes

[TylerRodan]

I think plenty of US shows still exhibit racism, but it's much more subtle. There is still lots of bigotry in other forms on current programming (mysogony, classicism, sizeism etc), and it's all disturbing. I think, however, that the homophobia stands out to me so much because of what Floyd said- Niles and Frasier are supposed to be cultured and open-minded, but when it comes to sexual orientation they act like frat boys. I would think F and N would be more sensitive to the issues since I'm sure, given their mannerisms and proclivities, that they would have been accused of being homosexual frequently. Maybe that explains it though- the defense mechanism Reaction Formation could explain it pretty easily. I'm not a Freudian personally (I taught psychology in a former life), but sometimes Freud did get things right.

I agree with Floyd though- Frasier and Niles should have been in therapy themselves. I can't see how they could begin to be effective therapists with so little self-understanding. There is so much in the show that is inaccurate about the therapeutic process, so I'm not surprised that avenue was never explored.

[Ariel]

Daphne's family.

The mismatched accents of the brothers. Why do they all have cockney accents, while Daphne and her mother are both Manchester? The writers of Frasier are obviously fairly clued up about the UK which makes this anomaly quite bizarre.

Her mother. She was obviously intended to be an irritating character. But I never warmed to her as I did with Bulldog. Millicent Martin's comedy timing didn't match that of the rest of the cast either.

Yes, I can't handle the Daphne mother character AT ALL - seems so fake that it interferes with my whole suspension of disbelief thing where I actually believe Frasier is real, at least while I'm watching it!

[Roverman]

I thought that was an in joke about the brothers differing accents!

Gertrude Moon is played by Millicent Martin and that is her real voice, here she is on a US Game Show in 1986.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlzLda0b2Ys

[freewill]

Tyler- I have to say I never realized how often homophobia is expressed on the show.

I'm not sure I'd call it homophobia. The only time a joke is made at the expense of someone who's gay or perceived to be gay, are instances when they themselves are trying to pass themselves off as straight (or are actually straight, in Barry's case.) With regard to Barry, Frasier felt it was his duty as Roz's friend, to tell her if Barry's not being honest with her about who he is. With Gil, a lot of the jokes originate from the fact that he insists he's happily married (to a woman) despite his effeminate qualities. When you consider any of the "out" gay characters who have appeared on the show, from Tom, to Edward, to Alistair, none of the jokes have come at the expense of the character; instead the jokes come more from the absurdity of the situation.

Besides, one of the biggest examples of how un-homophobic (Is that a word? Never mind, it is now.) the show is, is the episode "Daphne Does Dinner". Two of the guests at their dinner party, Thad and Jeremy, are presumably a gay (and interracial!) couple. There's no plot-related reason that they have to be a gay couple, they just are, and no special attention is drawn to it.

[PistolPoet]

Tyler- I have to say I never realized how often homophobia is expressed on the show.

I'm not sure I'd call it homophobia. The only time a joke is made at the expense of someone who's gay or perceived to be gay, are instances when they themselves are trying to pass themselves off as straight (or are actually straight, in Barry's case.) With regard to Barry, Frasier felt it was his duty as Roz's friend, to tell her if Barry's not being honest with her about who he is. With Gil, a lot of the jokes originate from the fact that he insists he's happily married (to a woman) despite his effeminate qualities. When you consider any of the "out" gay characters who have appeared on the show, from Tom, to Edward, to Alistair, none of the jokes have come at the expense of the character; instead the jokes come more from the absurdity of the situation.

Besides, one of the biggest examples of how un-homophobic (Is that a word? Never mind, it is now.) the show is, is the episode "Daphne Does Dinner". Two of the guests at their dinner party, Thad and Jeremy, are presumably a gay (and interracial!) couple. There's no plot-related reason that they have to be a gay couple, they just are, and no special attention is drawn to it.

I agree. The fact that in The Doctor is Out Frasier stalks Barry has nothing to do with homophobia, and it's not the point that Barry is gay. Frasier behaved similarly in Frasier Loves Roz, he tried to warn Roz simply because he wanted to prevent her from being hurt. He is nosy, and that's his only sin in that episode, but his heart is ultimately in the right place.
As for episodes like The Matchmaker and the plot with Alistair in The Doctor is Out, the joke is on Frasier, not on the gay person. Both Tom and Alistair are portrayed as successful, intelligent, kind people. I don't see anything wrong with the way they are written.
Furthermore, Edward Hibbert (Gil) is openly gay, and I really don't believe he'd have played Gil if he'd found the writing offensive.

[hansenkd]

This is funny. Joe Keenan and David Lee are openly gay and even militantly gay. "Frasier" is probably the LEAST homophobic show of the 1990s, even more so than "Will and Grace" because it wasn't in-your-face about it.

Think about it. Frasier and Niles are subversions of gay stereotypes. They go even beyond "metrosexuality." They are written in many instances as a gay couple. The fact that they are actually straight is meant to shatter stereotypes, not support them.

I never, ever thought I'd see the day that this show was accused of "homophobia." We are talking about a show that produced an episode, "Dr. Nora," that lampooned one of the most anti-gay pundits of the time. We're talking about a show whose producers had to fight to get that episode aired in syndication because CBS/Paramount were afraid of offending Laura Schlesinger. And if I remember correctly, Keenan and Lee were among the most outspoken critics of the Dr. Laura show itself, helping to drive it off the air.

"Frasier" was most definitely NOT homophobic. It managed to be the most pro-gay show on television at the time, and it deftly managed to do this without letting most people even know that it was doing it. Even post-W&G, the show felt no need to smash an agenda into our faces. That's one thing I always admired about it. "Frasier" NEVER blatantly shoved an agenda onto its viewers, be it the liberal viewpoints of its creators or co-stars or the conservative views of its main star.

The only agenda was to provide laughs--and to make us fall in love with these characters and to care about their feelings, hopes, desires, and dreams. And that was all it ever wanted to do.

Case in point: "The Matchmaker" and its gay storyline were very progressive for 1994. But if you watch that episode, you don't like it because it has a gay storyline. You like it because it's funny as hell.

[Patrick]

OK, while we're on the subject. The one thing that I find especially grating in that episode is that when Frasier enters the bar and says I am looking for a man, the man who responds says "yeah, I got that from the shorts." or something like that.

How about he gets that from the fact that they are in a gay bar? A homophobic joke in a gay bar that has to be one for the books!

It's also idiotic that Alistair would have considered that Frasier and him were an item WITHOUT ASKING! I mean, I wouldn't certainly not make that kind of assumption about a woman I was attracted to, so why would a man about another man? It happened often enough that I was disappointed when I thought that there was something going that I would certainly not run the risk of looking like an idiot in front of everyone. Alistair sounds like a very intelligent man so why would he take that stupid risk?

Besides the only way the whole episode can even be construed as funny is if you think that there is something shameless or degrading to be considered gay by mistake, years from now people will watch this episode and say "Look how bigoted they were back then."

[hansenkd]

OK, while we're on the subject. The one thing that I find especially grating in that episode is that when Frasier enters the bar and says I am looking for a man, the man who responds says "yeah, I got that from the shorts." or something like that.

How about he gets that from the fact that they are in a gay bar? A homophobic joke in a gay bar that has to be one for the books!

It's also idiotic that Alistair would have considered that Frasier and him were an item WITHOUT ASKING! I mean, I wouldn't certainly not make that kind of assumption about a woman I was attracted to, so why would a man about another man? It happened often enough that I was disappointed when I thought that there was something going that I would certainly not run the risk of looking like an idiot in front of everyone. Alistair sounds like a very intelligent man so why would he take that stupid risk?

Besides the only way the whole episode can even be construed as funny is if you think that there is something shameless or degrading to be considered gay by mistake, years from now people will watch this episode and say "Look how bigoted they were back then."

The episode was written by a very proudly gay man. Which kind of shoots all of the points above to hell.

[Eddie2012]

All of the three main gay themed episodes were. And directed by a gay man. And played by a gay actor in a main role and two gay actors in reoccurring roles (the latter two not necessarily in all 3 eps, I can’t remember).

Overall, I find homophobia too strong a word in this context anyway. Signing petitions to prevent gay marriages, turning gays away from a church, shunning a gay colleague, breaking off contact with family members or friends after they came out – that’s homophobia. The “shorts” line is just a sleazy joke between two gay – or thought to be gay - men, in my opinion.

Reminds me of two ex colleagues of mine, whom you could pluck out off their daily life routine at any given time and ask them to play the bartender and Gil Chesterton – nobody would notice the difference. They used to make jokes (gay or straight, and certainly also about themselves being gay) that I sometimes found remarkably rude. Incidentally, most of my other gay colleagues – and I have a lot – do not fit the common cliché, but those two made up for it all .

Alistair mistaking Frasier for his partner might be stupid, but it has nothing to do with him being gay or not.

(What I found awful though was Niles repeatedly poking fun at Frasier in Café Nervosa after Frasier’s ‘coming out’ (especially the line ‘I shouldn't make fun. You people have been persecuted long enough as it is *sniggers*' - well: yes . And also Martin’s furious insistence that Frasier should have handled the situation better from the start so that no one could have gotten the idea he might be gay to begin with. It shouldn’t matter to a man who pretended to be gay himself once ).

[frasier floyd]

This is all up to individual interpretation so I don't think it can be said with any authority that there are no instances of negative judgments and attitudes based on lifestyle and personality traits stereotypically defined by a gay sexual preference- which is maybe a softer way of defining homophobia (it should also be noted that homophobia does not always have to be in your face anti-gay, it can be subtle too). Yes Frasier and Niles are beyond metrosexual and often seem to be stereotypical gay men, but they also receive a lot of flack for this, especially from their father! I like Martin and while he loves his sons, he's always alluding to his embarrassment or disappointment that they're fond of the opera, spa days and sherry rather than watching or playing sports and drinking beer.

I recently watched an episode where Martin's on the phone with Duke and tries to cover the phone as Frasier and Niles were talking, and even said they were just noises from Daphne watching PBS; he was ashamed and lied about them being characters on a women's show! This scene pretty boldly portrays his embarrassment of Frasier and Niles and also his opinion that they're both woman-ly.

In America, it is stereotypically the fathers who have the greatest issue with acknowledging and accepting their kids as gay or lesbian, so to me, Martin's general disapproval and distaste for their "la-dee-da" lifestyles reflects this prevalent attitude. I think his relationship with his boys is a reflection of homophobia, even if it's to a minor degree. (To his credit, Martin doesn't seem to be homophobic in general: rather, he seemed to only feel this way toward his sons.) This doesn't mean to imply that the writers or the show in general are homophobic, but that the homophobic attitudes were acknowledged and included in the show in order to realistically portray these kinds of characters in society.

[Patrick]

...It shouldn’t matter to a man who pretended to be gay himself once ).

Yes, I always thought that that part was a bit shortsighted on both parts, Frasier's and Martin's. I mean what if he had fallen in love with that woman and ended up marrying her. That would have meant either that Martin would have had to pretend to be gay for the rest of his life while in the presence of his daughter in law or her family or that Frasier would have had to have a talk with her like : " You know my father is not really gay, he just pretended to, so that I could bag you."

See what I mean?

[PistolPoet]

...It shouldn’t matter to a man who pretended to be gay himself once ).

Yes, I always thought that that part was a bit shortsighted on both parts, Frasier's and Martin's. I mean what if he had fallen in love with that woman and ended up marrying her. That would have meant either that Martin would have had to pretend to be gay for the rest of his life while in the presence of his daughter in law or her family or that Frasier would have had to have a talk with her like : " You know my father is not really gay, he just pretended to, so that I could bag you."

See what I mean?

I've always thought that's why we never saw her again - she found out that Frasier and Martin had been mying to her and didn't like it. Not that I wouldn't like seeing Martin pretend he's gay for the rest of the show. He'd be divine .

[Patrick]

...In America, it is stereotypically the fathers who have the greatest issue with acknowledging and accepting their kids as gay or lesbian, so to me, Martin's general disapproval and distaste for their "la-dee-da" lifestyles reflects this prevalent attitude. I think his relationship with his boys is a reflection of homophobia, even if it's to a minor degree. (To his credit, Martin doesn't seem to be homophobic in general: rather, he seemed to only feel this way toward his sons.) This doesn't mean to imply that the writers or the show in general are homophobic, but that the homophobic attitudes were acknowledged and included in the show in order to realistically portray these kinds of characters in society.

Along these lines there are a few jokes on the show that are openly prejudiced.

For example when the older woman says: "What straight man remembers Renata Tebaldi?" and Martin responds "Indeed!" or something to that effect.

I happen to have records with Renata Tebaldi and I am not gay and most opera lovers who have enough records have a few with Renata Tebaldi, so that's tantamount to say that all men that like the opera are gay.

That's what I mean when I say that the show is sprinkled with homophobic slights even if they are slight slights.

[Eddie2012]

That's what I mean when I say that the show is sprinkled with homophobic slights even if they are slight slights.

I still would not call this homophobic; plain wrong surely but inappropriate at best.

We all have probably different interpretations. I associate homophobia with hatred and disgust, leading to violence and open or - yes - subtle but intentional, aggravation of gay people's lives. But I can see that others cast a wider net.

I see the downside of labelling every misstep or inappropriate joke as homophobic in people becoming so overly cautious around gay people, always afraid that they might inadvertedly cross a line and be misconstrued as homophobes, that they stop joking altogether; or even worse, try to avoid their company. This can make a atmosphere, say in an office, rather strained. That is why I mentioned my 2 ex colleagues; the atmosphere in this particular office has always been open and relaxed and we can poke fun at each others nationalities, sexual preferences, accents, etc. without anyone running to HR.

I also noticed that this cautioness is mostly applied to certain areas: sexuality, religion, disability spring to mind. Yet no Brit seems to be offended by them being portayed as kooky, drunk, violent, nasty, stealing idiots (Daphne's family) who can't cook a decect meal if their lives depended on it - or as butlers

And Martin is an ambiguous character in that respect. In Out with Dad and The Impossible Dream he could not be more different.

[Patrick]

...And Martin is an ambiguous character in that respect. In Out with Dad and The Impossible Dream he could not be more different.

Yes, Martin is a bit contradictory, I mean he has no problem pretending to be gay but at the same time he's horrified that his sons could be thought to be gay remember "They are not A COUPLE!!" when Niles is picking the ring for Daphne?

Also, who doesn't know what women glasses look like?