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The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Eddie2012 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:41 pm

Plus speaking before an audience adds an element of acute tension to the whole thing :twisted:

Anyway, I might watch the episode again tonight (haven't watched it for ages) as I can't remember what all the fuss about the 'spell his ass off' line was ... (because of 'ass'?, because Niles said it? :?: Just because it is a dumb line cannot be the reason, as there are so many others in S9 8-) )
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Patrick » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:09 pm

Eddie2012 wrote:Plus speaking before an audience adds an element of acute tension to the whole thing :twisted:

Anyway, I might watch the episode again tonight (haven't watched it for ages) as I can't remember what all the fuss about the 'spell his ass off' line was ... (because of 'ass'?, because Niles said it? :?: Just because it is a dumb line cannot be the reason, as there are so many others in S9 8-) )

I think it's just something that Niles wouldn't have said but it was intended as a comical effect like when Woody on Cheers says something clever and the people around are taken aback. The thing is that here, it doesn't work, at least not as far as I am concerned.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Forever Jung » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:21 pm

:twisted: I like the line because Niles is pissed off and tries to be badass, and fails miserably. "Spell his ass off" is not somthing you hear in many street fights :lol:

Like when Reggie the basketball player tries to give him a high five and Niles dithers saying "oh, I know this, it was steps", he's right out of his depth.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Patrick » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:55 pm

Forever Jung wrote::twisted: I like the line because Niles is pissed off and tries to be badass, and fails miserably. "Spell his ass off" is not somthing you hear in many street fights :lol:

Like when Reggie the basketball player tries to give him a high five and Niles dithers saying "oh, I know this, it was steps", he's right out of his depth.

In Shrink Rap Frasier tries to high-five him and Niles recoils in fear. :lol:
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby CatNamedRudy » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:44 pm

Patrick wrote:
Eddie2012 wrote:Plus speaking before an audience adds an element of acute tension to the whole thing :twisted:

Anyway, I might watch the episode again tonight (haven't watched it for ages) as I can't remember what all the fuss about the 'spell his ass off' line was ... (because of 'ass'?, because Niles said it? :?: Just because it is a dumb line cannot be the reason, as there are so many others in S9 8-) )

I think it's just something that Niles wouldn't have said but it was intended as a comical effect like when Woody on Cheers says something clever and the people around are taken aback. The thing is that here, it doesn't work, at least not as far as I am concerned.


It definitely doesn't work. It's painful.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Eddie2012 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:33 am

CatNamedRudy wrote:It definitely doesn't work. It's painful.

And after watching it last night, I finally know why. The line itself is bad enough, for Niles anyway, but for me it was the - sorry DHP - absolutely dreadful 'badass' delivery that was the final nail in the coffin... :evil:
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Eddie2012 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:51 pm

No Sex Please, We're Skittish

This episode has some good reviews on this site, but to me it feels like the shards left by the disastrous S10 finale are being glued together rather shapelessly, whether they really match or not – as long as they hold up somehow.

Roz waltzing back into KACL as if nothing happened and everyone accepting it.
Roz turning up at Frasier’s with some lame excuse as to why she acted so weird and again everything is good again.
Niles & Daphne might not be able to conceive. The way he tells her and her reaction feel more appropriate if he’d spilled a cup of tea on the carpet (“Darling, we can’t conceive”-“Oh well, no problem”).

Don’t get me wrong, there are some funny moments and I don’t really have anything to complain, but it still feels rather hastily put together. Still, glad that S8/9/10 are now in the past :) .
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Frasiertime » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:20 am

Police Story
First time I've seen it since reading this:

Did you know that... the parents of Peri Gilpin, Jane Leeves, and David Hyde Pierce have made guest appearances on "Frasier"? David Hyde Pierce's father and Peri Gilpin and Jane Leeves' mothers are featured at the table sitting behind Martin, Frasier, and Maureen Cutler at McGinty's in the season 3 episode "Police Story."

You can see DHP's father right over Maureen's shoulder during most of the scene-white hair and glasses-looks very much like DHP, you can easily see the resemblance. The two mothers-one has white hair, the other brown-can't tell who each mother is.

I've always liked this episode, especially the scene in Nervosa when Martin tells Niles he's interested in Maureen.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby hansenkd » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:28 am

Couple of things...

On the most infamous line in the history of the show ("Spell his ass off!"), I think the blame definitely lies more with our favorite writer SKP than with DHP. Yeah, the delivery was terrible, but I got the feeling through that whole episode that DHP couldn't believe he was being asked to read such tripe. There are many, many reasons why this ep is at the low bottom rung of the totem pole for so many viewers. DHP essentially phoned in the episode, but given such material, wouldn't you have done the same thing?

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I wasn't around when Dan O'Shannon made his famous appearance here, but there was chatter back in 2003 that although he had left the show, things were cordial until he saw the script for this episode, and that he considered the whole thing disrespectful and a poke in the eye. Not that the end of S10 wasn't an utter disaster (as the critics made clear over the WHOLE summer), but he had gamely taken over the show and done his best after Keenan and Lloyd left (at the worst possible moment) and deserved better than this. Yes, the mess needed to be cleaned up, but surely it could have been done more delicately. And while I love the next episode (Man, Plan, Gal) and it has some terrific moments, I felt bad for Felicity Huffman too (remember that this was before she hit the jackpot with the Lynette Scavo role). Julia had already been a fully fleshed-out, developed character, and Huffman really did her best with the material, and that episode was probably the most blatant example of character assassination in the show's entire run. Granted, Huffman acted her butt off in that last performance--it really was a tour de force--but again, it was like using a bull to clean up the mess in the china shop.

The one thing about NSPWS that really was brilliantly done was the pregnancy device. The "we can't conceive" thing has been done SO much on TV that for a while it looked like they were going to go down that same tired road, with several episodes about fertility treatments and disappointing results. Friends had famously JUST done this whole thing with Monica and Chandler--I couldn't believe they were going to go down that road--and then that twist at the end was so unexpected and so deftly done that I had to cheer. "That's your daddy" as Niles was getting electroshocked by the Testicool 2000 was also a riot.

I just watched Head Game. I really have to update my alphabetic watching reactions--I've just been slower and busier because I just took on some new work. It's a fine episode, but I have a hard time considering it canonical. First of all, the script was so obviously originally conceived with Frasier in mind, and adapting it for Niles was obviously done hastily. Bulldog bringing in the cheerleader for example--that is NOT how Niles would have reacted, but it's definitely how Frasier would have reacted. Also, Niles seemed to have forgotten the events of this episode totally and utterly four years later when "Hooping Cranes" rolled around--which was weird. Finally, this is personal and probably illogical, but I have a hard time watching either episode knowing that the Seattle SuperSonics no longer exist. It makes me think of the rape of the city of Seattle at the hands of Clay Bennett and Aubrey McClendon, and I end up feeling a visceral hatred for the two men--they didn't just steal a franchise that had been in the city for 40 years. They also broke the heart of Martin Crane (in my mind, anyway), and for that they cannot be forgiven.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby woggle » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:53 pm

Frasiertime wrote:Police Story
First time I've seen it since reading this:

Did you know that... the parents of Peri Gilpin, Jane Leeves, and David Hyde Pierce have made guest appearances on "Frasier"? David Hyde Pierce's father and Peri Gilpin and Jane Leeves' mothers are featured at the table sitting behind Martin, Frasier, and Maureen Cutler at McGinty's in the season 3 episode "Police Story."
You can see DHP's father right over Maureen's shoulder during most of the scene-white hair and glasses-looks very much like DHP, you can easily see the resemblance. The two mothers-one has white hair, the other brown-can't tell who each mother is.

I've always liked this episode, especially the scene in Nervosa when Martin tells Niles he's interested in Maureen.


Now that i didn't know , will watch for them next time i pop that episode on .
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Eddie2012 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:33 am

hansenkd wrote:but I got the feeling through that whole episode that DHP couldn't believe he was being asked to read such tripe.

I asked that myself a lot during S8 and 9; in War of the Words especially during his ridiculous "the higher truth that is spelling" speech in the kitchen... Some here seem to find it funny, but I just felt embarrassed on DHP's behalf :D

Lilith Needs A Favour

Martin: Can you imagine? Lilith's and my kid would be brother to you and Niles AND Freddie (yes).
Frasier: What are you talking about?
Martin: And if you and Lilith got back together, you'd be his step-father and his brother (yes) and Niles would be your (step?)son and his own uncle.

Is this complete nonsense or am I missing something here? :D
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Patrick » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:45 pm

Eddie2012 wrote:
hansenkd wrote:but I got the feeling through that whole episode that DHP couldn't believe he was being asked to read such tripe.

I asked that myself a lot during S8 and 9; in War of the Words especially during his ridiculous "the higher truth that is spelling" speech in the kitchen... Some here seem to find it funny, but I just felt embarrassed on DHP's behalf :D

Lilith Needs A Favour

Martin: Can you imagine? Lilith's and my kid would be brother to you and Niles AND Freddie (yes).
Frasier: What are you talking about?
Martin: And if you and Lilith got back together, you'd be his step-father and his brother (yes) and Niles would be your (step?)son and his own uncle.

Is this complete nonsense or am I missing something here? :D

Actually, he's right on all counts. Try to draw a family tree where one member belongs to two different generations and you'll see that because of the loop effect, you can have people related in all sorts of ways. Someone can become his own great great grandfather for instance, but that's just logical ramblings, like when someone says "I am a liar", logically, it's unsolvable, however concretely, it's nothing much. We're not logical beings, not everything we say, far from it, neither has to nor does make sense.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Eddie2012 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:18 pm

Patrick wrote:Actually, he's right on all counts. Try to draw a family tree where one member belongs to two different generations and you'll see that because of the loop effect

I tried... If Martin and Lilith got married, Niles would become Lilith's stepson. If they then divorced and Lilith remarried Frasier, then Niles would only be Frasier's (step)son and his own uncle IF he retrained this stepson status. Which he would not. And even if, then only towards Lilith. I think at least :D .
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Patrick » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:45 pm

Eddie2012 wrote:
Patrick wrote:Actually, he's right on all counts. Try to draw a family tree where one member belongs to two different generations and you'll see that because of the loop effect

I tried... If Martin and Lilith got married, Niles would become Lilith's stepson. If they then divorced and Lilith remarried Frasier, then Niles would only be Frasier's (step)son and his own uncle IF he retrained this stepson status. Which he would not. And even if, then only towards Lilith. I think at least :D .

It's not about them being married it's about Lilith and Martin having an inseminated child together. The Child would be both Niles' half-brother/sister and Frasier's son Frederick's half-brother but he would also be Frederick's uncle through Martin and therefore his own half-uncle (on a par with Frasier's God-uncle :D ) and so on... The possibilities are endless.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby hansenkd » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:53 am

OK--I'm posting in this thread because I talked about "Head Game" earlier. Well, I just refreshed my memory by watching "Hooping Cranes." Wow. There are continuity gaffes and then there is...this.

These two episodes simply cannot, in any possible way, be made to exist in the same universe. It can't be done. In HC, Niles is acting as if he never set foot in Key Arena when he had been a regular sideline VIP a mere four years prior. He doesn't know how long a basketball game lasts when he sat through several of them a mere four years prior. Dear God, if Daphne had been in the episode (it was one of the fat camp ones), would she have repeated all the same classical music metaphors she used in HG?

Furthermore, in the whole of Sonic fandom--or even the team staff, would not many, many people have realized that the dude who made the halfcourt shot was the SAME GUY who fixed the star player's head and had VIP courtside seating a MERE FOUR YEARS PRIOR?!?!?! Just. Wow. Even Frasier's wandering birthday doesn't hold a candle to this.

For this reason, I consider "Head Game" to be an alt-universe episode. It's funny and well-written, but it's just SO obvious that Niles was not meant to be the lead character, even if you don't know the real-life backstory to that.

I mentioned the embarrassing baggage associated with these episodes too, namely that the Sonics don't exist anymore. But what's even more disturbing is that I don't think you could find any other two episodes in the entire run of 264 that completely exclude each other from their respective narrative universes.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Patrick » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:02 am

hansenkd wrote:OK--I'm posting in this thread because I talked about "Head Game" earlier. Well, I just refreshed my memory by watching "Hooping Cranes." Wow. There are continuity gaffes and then there is...this.

These two episodes simply cannot, in any possible way, be made to exist in the same universe. It can't be done. In HC, Niles is acting as if he never set foot in Key Arena when he had been a regular sideline VIP a mere four years prior. He doesn't know how long a basketball game lasts when he sat through several of them a mere four years prior. Dear God, if Daphne had been in the episode (it was one of the fat camp ones), would she have repeated all the same classical music metaphors she used in HG?

Furthermore, in the whole of Sonic fandom--or even the team staff, would not many, many people have realized that the dude who made the halfcourt shot was the SAME GUY who fixed the star player's head and had VIP courtside seating a MERE FOUR YEARS PRIOR?!?!?! Just. Wow. Even Frasier's wandering birthday doesn't hold a candle to this.

For this reason, I consider "Head Game" to be an alt-universe episode. It's funny and well-written, but it's just SO obvious that Niles was not meant to be the lead character, even if you don't know the real-life backstory to that.

I mentioned the embarrassing baggage associated with these episodes too, namely that the Sonics don't exist anymore. But what's even more disturbing is that I don't think you could find any other two episodes in the entire run of 264 that completely exclude each other from their respective narrative universes.

This is definitely the most outrageously contradictory two episodes of the entire run but how about other contradictions like Frasier's cat allergy that was nonexistent on Cheers became conveniently so extreme on It's Hard To Say Goodbye If You Won't Leave that they had to move the cat basket almost out of sight and then was gone again on season 11? How about the fact that Frasier with Diane was an accomplished skier (so much so that he got applauses from the locals) and became so much of a spastic on season 10th Fraternal Schwinns that he couldn't even ride a bike, not to mention that he said while breaking into the house on Deathtrap that it was like "riding a bicycle" to NILES of all people. One would think that one of them would have been stricken by the irony...
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby hansenkd » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:01 pm

Patrick wrote:
hansenkd wrote:OK--I'm posting in this thread because I talked about "Head Game" earlier. Well, I just refreshed my memory by watching "Hooping Cranes." Wow. There are continuity gaffes and then there is...this.

These two episodes simply cannot, in any possible way, be made to exist in the same universe. It can't be done. In HC, Niles is acting as if he never set foot in Key Arena when he had been a regular sideline VIP a mere four years prior. He doesn't know how long a basketball game lasts when he sat through several of them a mere four years prior. Dear God, if Daphne had been in the episode (it was one of the fat camp ones), would she have repeated all the same classical music metaphors she used in HG?

Furthermore, in the whole of Sonic fandom--or even the team staff, would not many, many people have realized that the dude who made the halfcourt shot was the SAME GUY who fixed the star player's head and had VIP courtside seating a MERE FOUR YEARS PRIOR?!?!?! Just. Wow. Even Frasier's wandering birthday doesn't hold a candle to this.

For this reason, I consider "Head Game" to be an alt-universe episode. It's funny and well-written, but it's just SO obvious that Niles was not meant to be the lead character, even if you don't know the real-life backstory to that.

I mentioned the embarrassing baggage associated with these episodes too, namely that the Sonics don't exist anymore. But what's even more disturbing is that I don't think you could find any other two episodes in the entire run of 264 that completely exclude each other from their respective narrative universes.

This is definitely the most outrageously contradictory two episodes of the entire run but how about other contradictions like Frasier's cat allergy that was nonexistent on Cheers became conveniently so extreme on It's Hard To Say Goodbye If You Won't Leave that they had to move the cat basket almost out of sight and then was gone again on season 11? How about the fact that Frasier with Diane was an accomplished skier (so much so that he got applauses from the locals) and became so much of a spastic on season 10th Fraternal Schwinns that he couldn't even ride a bike, not to mention that he said while breaking into the house on Deathtrap that it was like "riding a bicycle" to NILES of all people. One would think that one of them would have been stricken by the irony...


All excellent examples--but on the full-episode level, I don't think anything tops the total contradiction of "Hooping Cranes" and "Head Game." If it HAD been Frasier who was the protagonist in the earlier episode, it might have been just a bit different, but still...
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Moon-Crane » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:13 am

Fair points with Niles's basketball knowledge/ability and the timeline of the episodes, but I still don't get how the Sonics not existing anymore is embarrassing baggage?
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby CatNamedRudy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:50 am

Moon-Crane wrote:Fair points with Niles's basketball knowledge/ability and the timeline of the episodes, but I still don't get how the Sonics not existing anymore is embarrassing baggage?


I'll never get that part either. How exactly were the writers supposed to know that the Sonics would end up moving to Oklahoma several years down the road?
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby hansenkd » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:58 am

Point taken. It just lends a sense of sadness and wistfulness to watching both episodes.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Eddie2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:42 am

I am glad I am not the only one who could not understand the whole Sonics not longer existing 'issue' :D . But I still don't see why those two episodes contradict themselves so massively.

If I remember correctly, Niles in HG met Reggie at KACL, then went to one game, where he soon discovers that Reggie does not benefit from his psychological advice, but from rubbing his hair. He then talks to Reggie again in the locker room before another game, but we don't know if he stayed to actually watch the game, especially as he there and then decides not to enforce Reggie's superstition and refuses to attend any more games. How on earth does that make him a 'regular sideline VIP'? For me there is only evidence that he attended exactly one game, and possibly a second one. Sure, he is given tickets for the entire season. But for years and years we have been told and shown that Niles is a man virtually devoid of any interest in this sport whatsoever, so I would not assume that he attended all of them, not even for Reggie’s or his father's sake. If he had, then surely this would be the most ridiculous out of character behaviour of all times :? .

Anyway, even if he had, he probably would have watched only Reggie and all the basketball speak, rules and timelines would most likely have gone in one ear and out the other. And I find 4 years a generous timeline to forget about stuff you weren't even remotely interested in to begin with. Maybe him forgetting a basic fact like the length of a game is a bit silly, but for me it definitely does not top factual errors like wandering birthdays or cat allergies coming and going :) .
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Patrick » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:52 pm

Eddie2012 wrote:...
Anyway, even if he had, he probably would have watched only Reggie and all the basketball speak, rules and timelines would most likely have gone in one ear and out the other. And I find 4 years a generous timeline to forget about stuff you weren't even remotely interested in to begin with. Maybe him forgetting a basic fact like the length of a game is a bit silly, but for me it definitely does not top factual errors like wandering birthdays or cat allergies coming and going :) .

I for one, don't know the first thing about basketball and yet I even played some during my college years, I also played field hokey, volley ball, tennis, water polo... and a few others. I don't mind sports, I just don't see the point of watching people do them. The same way I appreciate fine cuisine but wouldn't watch people eat it.

Anyway, I fully understand how Niles after a few years forgot everything about the game, assuming he even knew it to begin with, because I am the same way in that respect.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby CatNamedRudy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:51 pm

I was thinking the same thing about how many games Niles actually attended during the Reggie thing. I don't think he went to many and for the most part, Reggie didn't want anyone knowing about the head rubbing ordeal so he never made it obvious. It wasn't like Niles was some big famous guy like Jack Nicholson who shows up at every Lakers game and sits in the front row. Niles went to one or two games and most likely had no clue what was going on.

Niles' lack of interest in sports is pretty consistent througout the show. Frasier on the other hand seemed to enjoy sports on occasion during Cheers (having watched a few football games both at the bar and at Carla's house during the Thanksgiving episode) but was clueless by the time Frasier rolled around.
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby Patrick » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:46 pm

CatNamedRudy wrote:I was thinking the same thing about how many games Niles actually attended during the Reggie thing. I don't think he went to many and for the most part, Reggie didn't want anyone knowing about the head rubbing ordeal so he never made it obvious. It wasn't like Niles was some big famous guy like Jack Nicholson who shows up at every Lakers game and sits in the front row. Niles went to one or two games and most likely had no clue what was going on.

Niles' lack of interest in sports is pretty consistent throughout the show. Frasier on the other hand seemed to enjoy sports on occasion during Cheers (having watched a few football games both at the bar and at Carla's house during the Thanksgiving episode) but was clueless by the time Frasier rolled around.

The Thanksgiving episode was kind of an exception and I suspect that Frasier only feigned interest in order to fit in, unlike Diane who never hid her aversion to the sports, including Bowling of which she was a pro (cf. The first episode of the war of the bars) but otherwise Frasier would grimace when someone from the bar would inform him enthusiastically that they (the bar customers) would spend the evening watching some sporting event on the TV. I am not surprised that someone who would force himself to be interested into something for the sake of being one of the guys or to please a prospective mate would lose interest once the incentive is gone. (I for one can't believe in retrospect the things I went to in order to please the woman/girl I was with at the time only to hate those things even more after we were no longer together, the woman/girl in question and I.)
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Re: The Last Frasier Episode You Watched.

Postby CatNamedRudy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:22 pm

I disagree. I never saw his aversion to sports as strongly on Cheers as it was on Frasier. He wasn't a sports nut by any means but the open disdain for anything sport was intensified about a million times by the time Frasier rolled around.

None of that really bothers me though. I pretty much just put it down to "stuff that happens in TV Land." Obviously there are a few things that rankle me about this show (the whole Crucible issue for one) but mostly I try to just go with the flow.
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