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And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

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And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Charli » Sun Aug 03, 2003 1:32 pm

Right, I just found the rate an episode thing on this website, so I rated a few frasier episodes which i had a relatively strong opinion about, and I was really surprised to see that for this episode, nobody had rated it below a 7, with a huge majority rating it 10/10. This really surprised me because I didn't really enjoy this episode that much, and I rated it 2 (i think) and I do think that was a bit harsh maybe a 4/5 but I don't understand why so many people thought it was a great episode. There were bits that were good, but overall I'm not a huge fan of this episode. So I was wondering what do you think about the episode and I was wondering if anybody could enlighten me into what was so good about this episode!?!?
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Dan » Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:22 am

All those early season eight episodes are hard for me to watch mainly because we the audiance are expect to ignore the blately pregnant Jane Leeves move around in ridiculous outfits that do little to conceal her pregnancy. It just looks awkward and silly. Which made the Niles/Daphne relationship progress slower than I would have liked.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Rover » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:10 pm

I'll take a whack at why ATDRAWTS is such a great programme. :-)) It is skilfully plotted, includes some fabulous physical comedy treats, great dialogue, tense action, and wonderful sentimental scenes! :-))

First it is extremely difficult for me to separate the two part finale, "Something Borrowed, Someone Blue" from the premiere episodes, "And the Dish Ran Away With the Spoon (Parts 1 &2). I think they *have* to be taken as one (very long) episode. There is no break in the action between SB, SB and ATDRAWTS - so it is a 4 parter (as far as I am concerned). Seeing it that way allows you to view it on a classic story telling curve set-up, conflict, crisis, resolution. SBSB was the set-up and conflict stage; ATDRAWTS was the crisis and resolution stage (of course you realise that there are minor waves of smaller crisis and resolutions within each episode part (seeing how it was divided into 4 parts) which wax and wane along the way. Since you haven't mentioned SBSB I am assuming that you have no quarrel with its rating and are satisfied with its rating, so we will concentrate on the second half of the story - the crisis and the resolution. Even though Daphne and Niles finally admitted their love for each other in the end of SBSB there was a major barrier standing in the was of their happiness - two actually - Mel and Donny. The writers had to show us the reactions of each and what actions they were going to take in the light of the decisions that Daphne and Niles had made. Consequences had to be dealt with - not *all* consequences (because it is "episodic" television) but we had to know how the other half was going to handle it. Even though *all* problems didn't need to be solved, at least we had to know what path was going to be taken by the principle characters (was Donny going to accept Daphne's decision to call off the wedding? Was Mel going to send out contract on Niles?? ;-) ).

I loved how it opened and we see Daphne and Niles - giddy and almost in shock that they are together - so many forces seemed to be working against that ever happening. The opening scene in the Winnebago really lets us explore their personal feelings about the situation and we only see that another couple of times (when they are alone together) in the episode (once more in part 1 and once in part two).

Then we move on to having them face up to what they have done. The camera angle of extreme close-up POV is excellent! gives a glimpse but is *very* focused on our two lovers - yet it puts the viewer in Donny and Mel's shoes for a short while. Fabulous choice by the director!! We have to feel some of what Mel and Donny are feeling because this is what is bothering Daphne and Niles so much - their consciences.

After a short scene riding back - where it is reinforced that Daphne and Niles feel very bad about hurting Donny and Mel and setting up foreshadowing for later on that Frasier considers himself the "saviour" of this relationship and "WANTS" credit for it - we see Daphne starting to clean up the details of calling the wedding off. But this scene the next morning is really important because it shows how awkward in public Daphne and Niles feel in their new "roles". They aren't stiff or uneasy with each other in the kitchen alone. They discuss and broach difficult subjects with maturity (well with as much maturity Niles can muster with not fulfilling his looooong held lusts for the delicious Ms. Moon - wonderful physical comedy by DHP in that scene, which also relates so much of his frustrations and mental state), but watch for the contrast when Frasier comes in. They are still happy but much more reserved with each other - they have kept their feelings secret for sooooo long that they put the distance between themselves in a public sort of way almost automatically - through habit. Just skilful writing IMO and completely natural for the story line. We also see that Donny is going to add to Daphne's worries by suing her (and we see that Frasier manages to include himself in the suit - love the line about "Are you going to hit me??") and Niles has to deliver himself on a platter to Mel (so we know there will be *big* trouble there too!!!). The crisis is building - here all the chickens are coming home to roost!

The CN scene is one of classic tension - it has physical comedy, skilful word play ("technically she's a physical therapist") and moves the plot along - we now get a glimpse of the torture that Mel has in mind for Niles. We also see that Niles is falling back into his habit of submissive behaviour (it's hard for him to break this around dominant women) and agrees to Mel's terms to avoid trouble. Jane Adams also deserves big kudos for her "Rich Bitch from Mel's Hell" performance in this scene - teeters on the brink of insanity but always (almost) under control. Great scene!!

Once we know what is the two "others" plans are we have to see how our main characters react to that and the next little while is spent carefully building up showing us the anxiety in Daphne's mind (and they have to do this to make her "explosion" believable). Niles is under pressure - he thinks he is doing all right trying to make it easy for Daphne and him - appeasing Mel (also I think he feels terribly guilty knowing that Mel *really* loved him - as evidenced by a very subtle performance by Jane A. at the reception). We see that Daphne feels she is the "forgotten" person in his life - and when he makes a mistake sympathising with Mel, she cracks! Frasier is just his pompous self (hard to see other's POV when your own head is blocking the view) and doesn't pick up on the tension underlying the argument that Daphne and Niles have (Niles is insecure, Daphne is questioning whether it was all worth it) - it is a true crisis.

We know that Daphne immediately regrets coming down on everyone so hard (everyone can relate to saying things that they shouldn't have in the heat of an argument) and I love the tender scene where Frasier shows that he never would truly let someone like Daphne down and carry a grudge.

The final scene of the second part of ATDRAWTS has to be one of my very favourite Niles and Daphne scenes!!! It is soooo romantic and heartfelt - just thinking about it brings shivers to my spine! DHP, John M. and everyone plays it so well.
The nervousness of Niles in the elevator with Martin - wanting to ask about Daphne but fully suspecting that she may still be angry, the sly knowing tone of John M.'s voice when he is talking about "pygmies" counterplays humour with the anxiety of Niles. When DHP's voice cracks when he confesses to his father " Dad, I don't think I handled things very well today. Do you think Daphne will ever forgive me?" - it is priceless! And the way he looks around the corner of the building - haltingly almost hoping beyond belief that Daphne will be there - and then there she is!! That whole scene is so great! The music, the conversation between Niles and Daphne, the sentiment and love of Martin and Frasier for our new couple - it all is an expression of the love between Daphne and Niles! All is forgiven, they have decided that their love can withstand the pressure that Mel and Donny have concocted - they love each other and want to get to know each other all over again in "this whole new light" as Daphne said much earlier (great tie-in with the theme! - again very good writing). This scene is so cleverly written, with subtle references to knowing each other (she relates her Manchester roots - something he already knows) and yet discovering that things have changed too (Niles jokingly tells her that he is from a mountain village from Tibet - but it is symbolic that he isn't his "old" self - he has changed!). It is just wonderful!!

That's what I love about ATDRAWTS! Great writing, classic structure, great acting, interesting camera work, lots of humour and a very satisfying conclusion! :-))

Now - LOL!! Aren't you glad you asked? ;-)
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Sam » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:11 pm

Well put, Rover. I agree totally with your analyzation of ATDRAWTS.

:-)
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby ToffeeGirl » Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:56 pm

Well put Rover
I could read your analysis of episodes all day.
I too loved this episode and have always viewed it as a four parter along with SBSB
It has everything, great writing and great acting, especially from Jane Adams, I never thought I would feel sorry for Mel, but I did. It captures the tension and anxiety that an event like this would bring about, while still remaining a very funny episode, after all “Fraiser” is a comedy.

One thing has always eaten away at me about this episode though. It's the following exchange between Niles and Daphne at the very end of the program.

Niles: So where you from?
Daphne: Manchester, England.
Niles: Oh, my. Big family?
Daphne: Hideously. And you?
Niles: I'm from a small mountain village in Tibet.
Niles: Tenzing Norgay used to carry me to school.
Niles: You know what I've always wondered?
Daphne: I think I can guess.
Niles: Yeah.

Well I can’t guess and I want to know. So if anyone has any ideas I would love to hear them. Yes this may seem a little sad but it has always bugged me! Still love the episode though.
"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free"
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby fan » Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:40 pm

Brilliant Rover! You have said it all. This is one of the episodes that I would consider a "Classic" The row in the apartment between Frasier, Niles and Daphne was very funny("Oh shut up Frasier") and what can I say about the ending......just that I think it is one of the most romantic scenes ever shown on television. I loved the piece of music that Niles and Daphne danced to in this episode....does anyone know what it was called,it sounded very familiar.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Anne » Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:52 pm

Brilliant ROVER ! :-))

Thankyou toffeegirl, the same thing has always interested me. I cannot decide what they mean?

Niles: You know what I've always wondered?
Daphne: I think I can guess.
Niles: Yeah.


I put it down to physical contact, as in "I have always wanted to hold you in my arms and never let go."? then I go along the tangent of "why would you be interested in me"
The thing that tricks me is when DHP says "Yeah" he ends on a downward note. So he is agreeing with Daphne not continuing the question.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Anne.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Rover » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:16 am

Well... if you are interested in *my* interpretation of what that conversation meant (*and* a continuation of it) stay tuned for my next few chapters of my fanfic on fanfiction.net. I will be delving into that very scene within the next couple of chapters! ;-) (shameless plug - but what the hell! ;-) ) Title of the story (if you are interested) is "Just One Look".
:-)
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Anne » Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:33 am

I eagerly await the coming chapters of "Just One Look"............... I'm still recovering from Niles in the shower....Rover.......he he. All in good fun of course.

Anne.
Anne
 

Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby pat » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:02 pm

Alright, here it goes... Here is my final thoughts for this line...

Niles: Tenzing Norgay used to carry me to school.
Niles: You know what I've always wondered?
Daphne: I think I can guess.
Niles: Yeah.

Since Tenzing Norgay was famous for being one of the first two to reach the summit of Mt. Everest, and Niles claiming to have been carried to school by him, I think it would the episode could have ended like this...

Niles: Tenzing Norgay used to carry me to school.
Niles: You know what I've always wondered?
Daphne: No, what?
Niles: If Tenzing could have carried me to the top of Mount Everest.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Frasiertime » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:14 pm

I like your response! Another might be -

Niles: Tenzing Norgay used to carry me to school.
Niles: Do you know what I've always wondered?
Daphne: I think I can guess.
Niles: Yeah, that I might be responsible for him reaching the top of Mt. Everest.
One of the best things about watching Frasier is the rewind button!
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby hansenkd » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:27 am

Rover's analysis is great, but the real gem of the episode is, of course, Frasier's speech at the reception...
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby daphy » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:30 pm

The first time the episode aired I remember feeling so bad for Mel when Frasier gave that speech. Now I'm just like "HA"
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Patrick » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:59 pm

daphy wrote:The first time the episode aired I remember feeling so bad for Mel when Frasier gave that speech. Now I'm just like "HA"

I for one never felt any sorrow for Mel, after the way she manipulated Niles to turn him against his brother (for that wine thing), she just couldn't leave well enough alone. Frasier would have been cork-master and owed one to his brother but no she had to put a wedge between them. She's a manipulative shrew and deserves whatever she gets.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Emil » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:37 pm

I agree completely with charli; I'm not a big fan of that episode. Two faults: There is no comedy in it (only laugh moment is the phone call to Wendell Fong); and the "Niles has to please Mel" storyline is just cruel, demolishing all that good and warm feeling we got from Niles and Daphne finally getting together.
Mel's bitterness and Niles's spineless behavior does not make for great comedy; it just turns my stomach. Together with "fat Daphne" that is why season 8 is the worst (OK, least great) of all Frasier seasons.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Patrick » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:45 pm

Emil wrote:I agree completely with charli; I'm not a big fan of that episode. Two faults: There is no comedy in it (only laugh moment is the phone call to Wendell Fong); and the "Niles has to please Mel" storyline is just cruel, demolishing all that good and warm feeling we got from Niles and Daphne finally getting together.
Mel's bitterness and Niles's spineless behavior does not make for great comedy; it just turns my stomach. Together with "fat Daphne" that is why season 8 is the worst (OK, least great) of all Frasier seasons.

Well, they had either to explain the pregnancy or hide it somehow. I think making Daphne pregnant at that point would have ruined the character so they definitely chose the lesser of two evils.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Emil » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:24 am

Patrick wrote:Well, they had either to explain the pregnancy or hide it somehow. I think making Daphne pregnant at that point would have ruined the character so they definitely chose the lesser of two evils.

Now we're off topic, Patrick :) (and I'm sure there are already threads dedicated to this!) but my short objection to that goes here: First, are you sure there are no other ways to deal with a pregnant actor; and even if there weren't, the way they handled the subject was not up to Frasier standards; Daphne was portrayed in a really clumsy way; hiding candy and all, not very comic nor sensitive to the subject matter of overweight.
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Patrick » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:13 pm

Emil wrote:
Patrick wrote:Well, they had either to explain the pregnancy or hide it somehow. I think making Daphne pregnant at that point would have ruined the character so they definitely chose the lesser of two evils.

Now we're off topic, Patrick :) (and I'm sure there are already threads dedicated to this!) but my short objection to that goes here: First, are you sure there are no other ways to deal with a pregnant actor; and even if there weren't, the way they handled the subject was not up to Frasier standards; Daphne was portrayed in a really clumsy way; hiding candy and all, not very comic nor sensitive to the subject matter of overweight.

It makes for interesting consequences though. If her daughter Isabella becomes an actress she can write on her resume that she played her first role before she was born as... body fat! :lol:
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Re: And The Dish Ran Away With The Spoon.........

Postby Frasiertime » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Good One Patrick!
One of the best things about watching Frasier is the rewind button!
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