Nitpicking:

[Patrick]

...
Every mistake/faux pas or anything that's wrong with Frasier is a major issue for Patrick who likes to pick on every minute detail about the show. I'm convinced he's a spy from another forum who secretly hates the show.

Translation: Anyone who's not a drone of the borg collective is an enemy and must be destroyed.

[PistolPoet]

Just because she doesn't know any examples personally doesn't mean they exist. Roz wouldn't be such a great character if she had no similarities with real life people. And I wasn't going to say anything before, because I like to keep my personal life to myself, but to answer your question

In real life, how many women do you know who wake up with people whose names they don't even know? My guess is: not even one.

you both know me (well, "know" might be a big word, but you see what I mean). I am in a happy long-term relationship in which we both agreed to sleep with other people. So when I have a one-night stand, I don't really care what his name is, and it's forgotten by the time he's out the door. And I'm far from being the only one, I have friends from various countries (all girls) who do the same thing. You can choose to believe me or not, but there you have it.

[Patrick]

Just because she doesn't know any examples personally doesn't mean they exist. Roz wouldn't be such a great character if she had no similarities with real life people. And I wasn't going to say anything before, because I like to keep my personal life to myself, but to answer your question

In real life, how many women do you know who wake up with people whose names they don't even know? My guess is: not even one.

you both know me (well, "know" might be a big word, but you see what I mean). I am in a happy long-term relationship in which we both agreed to sleep with other people. So when I have a one-night stand, I don't really care what his name is, and it's forgotten by the time he's out the door. And I'm far from being the only one, I have friends from various countries (all girls) who do the same thing. You can choose to believe me or not, but there you have it.

Roz promised sex to Noel just to have a shot at going to Vegas. Do you do that too? Roz teaches her daughter to lie to people's face without shame. Do you do that too? Roz cheats on people and then cries her eyes out when they do that to her. Do you do that too? Roz dumps people like garbage and then whine when once in a great while she gets a little taste of her own medicine. Do you do that too?

Go ahead, take one single detail, distort it and then pretend that it represents the whole character.

I suggest you people found a club: "The Roz' Apologists"

I've just watched the Frasier Lite episode. The sleazy way she pushes Noel to do something that in real life could very well kill him is revolting and the fact that she brags about it to the others and that no one is even surprised by her appalling behavior says a lot. And don't talk to me about character growth since it was one of the latest episodes.

But keep your blinders on, that's the only thing that keeps you from seeing the truth.

[PistolPoet]

Roz promised sex to Noel just to have a shot at going to Vegas. Do you do that too? Roz teaches her daughter to lie to people's face without shame. Do you do that too? Roz cheats on people and then cries her eyes out when they do that to her. Do you do that too? Roz dumps people like garbage and then whine when once in a great while she gets a little taste of her own medicine. Do you do that too?

Go ahead, take one single detail, distort it and then pretend that it represents the whole character.

I suggest you people found a club: "The Roz' Apologists"

I've just watched the Frasier Lite episode. The sleazy way she pushes Noel to do something that in real life could very well kill him is revolting and the fact that she brags about it to the others and that no one is even surprised by her appalling behavior says a lot. And don't talk to me about character growth since it was one of the latest episodes.

But keep your blinders on, that's the only thing that keeps you from seeing the truth.

We weren't talking about any of that, we were talking about the number of people Roz and Frasier have slept with.

[Patrick]

...Roz and Frasier have slept with.

And Roz' number is most likely many many times that of Frasier's. End of story.

Or is it something else that you wished to talk about? I'll let you move the goal posts to your convenience.

There have been many other things that have been talked about in this discussion but I'll let you pretend that they don't exist.

[welshben23]

I've just watched the Frasier Lite episode. The sleazy way she pushes Noel to do something that in real life could very well kill him is revolting and the fact that she brags about it to the others and that no one is even surprised by her appalling behavior says a lot. And don't talk to me about character growth since it was one of the latest episodes.

But keep your blinders on, that's the only thing that keeps you from seeing the truth.

Seriously, if you think ANYTHING in Frasier is revolting, don't watch The Sopranos, The Wire, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, I could go on and on.

[Patrick]

... Seriously, if you think ANYTHING in Frasier is revolting, don't watch The Sopranos, The Wire, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, I could go on and on.

ANYTHING? really? So you don't think that what Lilith's brother did, qualifies as revolting then...

Interesting.

[Cymru1991]

On a slightly different note: This is the problem that I have with analysing comedy closely (which by the way, I enjoy doing to a degree). Because comedy characters, by their very nature tend to be at worst ridiculous and at best caricatures. If they were fully rounded and totally empathetic then we'd be watching a drama after all

Just off the top of my head, a few of the golden British comedies:

Dad's Army: Cpt. Mainwaring is an elitist with an inferiority complex who takes every opportunity to demean Sgt Wilson. L/Cpl. Jones is clearly a senile old man who has no regard for the wishes of others around him. Pvt. Walker trades in illegal goods and has fun at the expense of the others in the platoon, always keeping his best interests at heart. Infact (in The loneliness of the long-distance Walker, he does everything he can to avoid being called up). There are other I could mention, but this post is already getting too long

Only Fools and Horses: Del Boy is a pretty repugnant guy. Intentionally not allowing his brother to develop as a human being, preferring instead to having him work for free selling rubbish from a suitcase. Rodney is a timid, sexually-obsessed introvert. Boycie is a scheming car-salesman-come-crook who gladly puts others' lives at risk by selling them unsafe cars at inflated prices to fund his lavish lifestyle.

I will add at this point that I love the above comedies and empathise with all of the characters mentioned. I had tears when the platoon were convinced that Operation Sealion had begun and Mainwaring made his speech giving what he thought were his final instructions to his men on how to defend to the last man. I also shed similar tears when Del Boy took a beating from an ex-con because Rodney had been playing away with said ex-con's wife, not to mention his heartbreaking speech to Rodney when they're stuck in the lift and Rodney finally opens up about his wife's miscarriage...

Now I seem to remember starting this post off with a specific point in mind, but I've gone off on a tangeant. I guess I'll close by saying that by their very nature, characters in a comedy don't lend themselves well to analysis. Lots of the stuff we can find objectionable about certain characters (see the posts above for a selection ) are there because at some point we need laughs. It is comedy after all. Hope that someone found this vaguely entertaining

[frasier floyd]

I agree, though of course it's still fun to discuss and analyze different aspects of the show we all enjoy. I don't know anyone who likes Frasier like I do, so this is a fun place to share opinions and rehash jokes. That said, I have no desire to engage with anyone who thinks their opinion is fact and relentlessly debates the issue, not stopping short of personal shots- so for those interested, I've found that there's a hide-post feature available.

[PistolPoet]

On a slightly different note: This is the problem that I have with analysing comedy closely (which by the way, I enjoy doing to a degree). Because comedy characters, by their very nature tend to be at worst ridiculous and at best caricatures. If they were fully rounded and totally empathetic then we'd be watching a drama after all

(...)

Only Fools and Horses: Del Boy is a pretty repugnant guy. Intentionally not allowing his brother to develop as a human being, preferring instead to having him work for free selling rubbish from a suitcase. Rodney is a timid, sexually-obsessed introvert. Boycie is a scheming car-salesman-come-crook who gladly puts others' lives at risk by selling them unsafe cars at inflated prices to fund his lavish lifestyle.

Goodness, yes. I've felt sorry for poor Rodney so many times!

The problem with discussions about sitcoms is that you can't have them unless you take the characters at least somewhat seriously. And when you do that, you start thinking about them in your own terms of morality, world views etc. The trick is to be able to accept that other people also view characters from their own standpoints, but those standpoints can differ from yours. But I have never seen the need for any member of this forum to descend from discussing a character into making personal comments about other members - it's just not constructive in any way.

[Patrick]

I agree, though of course it's still fun to discuss and analyze different aspects of the show we all enjoy. I don't know anyone who likes Frasier like I do, so this is a fun place to share opinions and rehash jokes. That said, I have no desire to engage with anyone who thinks their opinion is fact and relentlessly debates the issue, not stopping short of personal shots- so for those interested, I've found that there's a hide-post feature available.

You're the one who started taking pot shots at me with your accusation of sexism and now you dare play the role of a victim.

So much for honesty.

Now go hide your head in the sand or cover your ears and say "LALALALALA!!" for all I care.

[Patrick]

Unlike Frasier who's essentially a good person, with the flaws of a good person, Roz is essentially a bad person. She uses her daughter, at the risk of compromising her ego forever and turn her into a misfit, to get back at people, she teaches her to lie for no other reason that she needs her to at the moment, she has no regard for the little girl's future in society. To think that Roz' mother is an attorney general. What would she have thought of her behaving that way? She lies to people without scruples, she manipulates people when it suits her without regard to their health. And when reality pays her back, even a little, she falls apart like the narcissist that she is.

For all intents and purposes, Roz is very little more than a female version of Bull Dog whom most people admit is a sleazebag, even the ones that don't see that Roz falls into the same category.

That doesn't mean that don't like the show like some simplistic people around here gleefully conclude that I do. It means that I see the characters as they really are and not some idealized version that I've built up in my head.

Besides bad people are necessary to a show, if only to serve as foil to the good characters.

[welshben23]

There's no point arguing or stating your own opinion, everyone. We're all wrong and Patrick is always right. Frasier is a terrible show full of hateful characters who we would never become friendly with.

[Patrick]

There's no point arguing or stating your own opinion, everyone. We're all wrong and Patrick is always right. Frasier is a terrible show full of hateful characters who we would never become friendly with.

It's a pity the KGB has been dismantled. They could have used you for their propaganda. In fact you could have given a lecture or two there on how to defame someone's character.

[Ariel]

Some very interesting posts there from most people - btw today I rotated my tYres, well OK it was only the two front ones and I had to do it because the wheels need balancing, but do you know -there are a lot of women out there who keep their own cars on the road, even if only because they can't afford to pay anyone else to do it, oh yes, and I change my own oil too!

[PistolPoet]

Some very interesting posts there from most people - btw today I rotated my tYres, well OK it was only the two front ones and I had to do it because the wheels need balancing, but do you know -there are a lot of women out there who keep their own cars on the road, even if only because they can't afford to pay anyone else to do it, oh yes, and I change my own oil too!

Great use of the smiley, didn't even know we had it .

And you have my admiration, I'm not sure I could be bothered with rotating my own tyres! That being said, I can't even drive, so cars are a mystery to me.

[Patrick]

Some very interesting posts there from most people - btw today I rotated my tYres, well OK it was only the two front ones and I had to do it because the wheels need balancing, but do you know -there are a lot of women out there who keep their own cars on the road, even if only because they can't afford to pay anyone else to do it, oh yes, and I change my own oil too!

I don't know any woman who rotates her own tires. Usually it's either her husband or her boyfriend who does it. For the ones who can't afford the garage that is. Besides it's not easy to re-balance the car (I don't know the technical term in English) after the wheels have been moved. You have to use little lead weights that you put on the wheels and then measure the balance with the correct instruments or you'll have a car unstable beyond the norm and you risk a fine (if the cops find out) , nay an accident in some extreme cases. It's possible that some people rotate their tires regardless of the balance but they are taking a risk.

[Ariel]

You don't know many independent single women do you!

It's my car, I chose it, I bought it , I drive it, I enjoy working on it - I like cars!!
Just so we can really get the stereotype female myth 'disassembled' all at once - I hate cooking and shopping and I'm not remotely interested in shoes unless they are walking boots!

[frasier floyd]

That was my point. I don't know anyone who rotates their own tires- man or woman. Anyone I've discussed cars with just has them rotated while having their car serviced for other reasons. It's often part of a package deal- or ~$20 by itself- but it's not needed often so having it done professionally is perfectly reasonable. It's just as reasonable if someone wants to save money and do it themselves or allow a friend to do it for them. It's foolish to get wrapped up in gender stereotypes.

[Cymru1991]

Just thought I'd throw this in but I actually do know someone who rotates their own tyres. I live in the deepest darkest countryside and most of the women (of all ages) work on the land as farmers or gamekeepers. Many of them are incredibly practical (more so than me) and I know this one girl (same age as me I believe) who has in the past rotated her own tyres.

Has no bearing on this topic, but thought I'd throw it out there

[Roverman]

I imagine the biggest hurdle with rotating tyres is the ability to put the car up in the air to do it? If I had my own four post lift I could do mine myself. Plus my local garage only charges £8 a corner.

[Ariel]

I imagine the biggest hurdle with rotating tyres is the ability to put the car up in the air to do it? If I had my own four post lift I could do mine myself. Plus my local garage only charges £8 a corner.

I cheat and use the spare, so do one at a time!! I suppose though that is where I could use a man - get him to lift the car up for me!!

[Roverman]

Don't ask me, I'm barely tall enough to see over the roof of most cars.....

[Allystare]

This slut-shaming discussion is completely outdated and senseless. In the West, casual licentious recreational sex (that has nothing to do with procreation) is very much the norm. Both men and women do it. It didn't start out of a vacuum you know. It was very much alive in the 90's, we simply didn't talk about it. I don't know why some people are shocked by it. Western morality (outside of old timers) no longer places a negative value judgment on this sort of stuff.

As for Roz/Frasier. For the most part, Roz is just looking for a good time (although there are times when she was serious about relationships) and I think she is completely honest about it. That's the difference between her and Bulldog. Bulldog is looking for a fun time too, but he often gives others (particularly the women) the impression that he's a sensitive guy looking for a meaningful relationship; he isn't, he's simply using them for sex and plans to discard them momentarily. So he lets them get emotionally invested in him and deceives them for personal pleasure. Roz, on the other hand, doesn't really operate the same way. She might have done that in some episode or another, but that's not her normal course of operation. That's the difference. In fact, it's explicitly mentioned in one episode where a tennis player friend of Roz's treats Bulldog the way he has treated women all his life: she has sex with and dumps him while Bulldog falls in love with her. Again, Roz doesn't usually do that, while Bulldog does.

As for the Frasier/Roz comparison, Roz may have slept with more people but it's not as if this is so because Frasier isn't as promiscuous. Frasier is every bit as promiscuous, or at least wants to be, but is simply not as successful at getting ladies as Roz is at getting men. That's hardly some meaningful difference. Even Frasier has slept with dozens of women, and usually when he's single, he's bemoaning the fact (he usually make it clear explicitly that he wants the sex). So Frasier ain't no nun either. Furthermore, Frasier is completely neurotic and insane. He ends up with all these attractive women, many of whom even happen to be cultured like him, who he really shouldn't have any chance with (they're usually more attractive than him), and he somehow still manages to blow it all off for all sorts of incomprehensible reasons (obviously, the backstage reason for that is comedy). In this aspect he has Roz outclassed by galaxies. He is far more neurotic and deranged than her. She at least seems self-aware, knows what she wants, pursues it, is honest and usually succeeds. Also, I can vaguely remember Frasier manipulating and fooling people (including his romantic interests) on many occasions with his wit and intelligence. He's tried to juggle multiple women on at least 2 occasions, deceiving them all. Frasier, however, really doesn't know what he want, isn't really successful most of the time, and just ends up doing all sorts of nonsensical stuff in the times that he does end up with people.

[Roverman]

An excellent response there Allystare with many salient points made. Keeping to the subject in hand it's always felt odd to me that both genders in Frasier are as obviously promiscuous as they are, on screen, I can't imagine a similarly styled UK programme being as blatant with the references to sex, how late was this show on?!